A little help please?

[Rheged]

A Lightning/Tornado mix is unlikely as most Lightnings were long gone before Tornado's came on the scene.

Bah! It's a WHIF!!!

LIGHTNINGS FOREVERRRRR!!!!

AGREED!!!!   Music from twin Avons  sounding across  the 49th parallel sounds good to me.

As its Whiffworld,  dare I mention the possibilities of    the Avro Arrow?.......or is that taking it too far?

Sudden silly thought added later.......a group of Buccaneers  flying THROUGH selected U S cities as in Operation Pulsator (Beruit)  in order to provide a degree of gentle persuasion that brassing off the  Commonwealth is generally not a very sensible move?   Those Arrows would provide excellent top cover.

[PR19_Kit]

So Wickipedia has it wrong? Thanks Kit. Did they make a Harrier with longer wings? LOL!
And would the Victor B.2 Mk 1 be a good escort/fueler for the 'Little Brothers"?

Actually they DID make Harriers with longer wings! 

The GR1s, and presumably the T2s and GR3s as well, could have 'ferry tips' installed outboard of the outrigger landing gear fairings to improve their range although I understand it was very rarely used in service. They weren't all that longm just enough to improve the wing's aspect ratio and the Trans-Atlantic race aircraft used them so they must thave worked reasonalby well.

A Victor K2 would be the ideal tanker for that period, yes.

[Go4fun]

Thanks Kit. I was told by the person that wrote the original story that mine is roughly based on that by this point in the timelime the British are pulling back and letting the Canadians handle things for the most part.
So Harriers and Buccaneer S2s is what I've got.
Rheged: Avro Arrows? A very interesting thought indeed.

[Weaver]

A Harrier is probably your best bet for waxing helos with a fast jet. While not quite as slow a target as a Cobra, two Sea Harriers did shoot a Pucara to rags in the Falklands by VIFFing their nozzles and just sitting behind it, hosing it with 30mm...

Here's a thought: in 1991, the RAF was transitioning from the GR.3 (1st gen)to the GR.5 (2nd gen). The latter is unquestionably a MUCH better bomb-truck, but the GR.3 was about 50 kts faster due to it's thinner wing. Since the GR.3s are redundant in the ground-attack role, how about converting some of them to helo-hunters by removing the LRMTS set and recce camera from the nose extension, and replacing them with an Infra-red search and track sensor? Wire the outboard pylons for AAMs and carry the gunpods and you're good to go....

[Go4fun]

A Harrier is probably your best bet for waxing helos with a fast jet. While not quite as slow a target as a Cobra, two Sea Harriers did shoot a Pucara to rags in the Falklands by VIFFing their nozzles and just sitting behind it, hosing it with 30mm...

Here's a thought: in 1991, the RAF was transitioning from the GR.3 (1st gen)to the GR.5 (2nd gen). The latter is unquestionably a MUCH better bomb-truck, but the GR.3 was about 50 kts faster due to it's thinner wing. Since the GR.3s are redundant in the ground-attack role, how about converting some of them to helo-hunters by removing the LRMTS set and recce camera from the nose extension, and replacing them with an Infra-red search and track sensor? Wire the outboard pylons for AAMs and carry the gunpods and you're good to go....

But in the middle of what was becoming the Third World War would the RAF have been sending these to Canada? The UK had undergone a nuclear attack from America and responded in kind with the war turning into a land-air battle over the Canada-US border.
The senario in work is a flight of six Harriers supported by three Buccaneers, six Avro Arrows and six Arvo Canucks doing a 'Deep Penitration Raid' with two of the Bucs being refuelers and the third a AEW-Command & Control aircraft.
The British are pulling back as the Americans have given up their attacks and are barely holding their lines. Both sides are worn down and have suffered great loses and the Americans have the added problems of Mexico attacking from the south and civil unrest.

[pyro-manic]

What's the target of the raid? The Buccaneer was a very, very good strike aircraft, and I don't think it would be relegated to a fuel-truck for the Harriers. I'd be more inclined to say have the Buccs delivering the main strike - be it bombs or Martel TV-guided missiles - and have the Harriers along as escort. Guns and rockets/'Winders for targets of opportunity and to deal with the Cobras. Arrows flying top cover to deal with any fighters the Americans manage to put up, and to look after the Victor tanker that refuels the returning strikers.

[rickshaw]

Personally, I think a Cobra would have a very hard time interfering with a Bucc during a strike run.  All the Bucc driver would need to do is fly through or near the Coba and either it would be destroyed in the impact or be seriously upset by the backwash. 

[MattP]

Interesting concept.  What is the history leading up to 1991 and relations between Canada and the USA?

Clearly, you've indicated that development continued on the Avro Arrow rather than have it being canceled in 1959.  As the intended replacement for the CF-100, it would supplant the CF-100 in the interceptor role.  The Clunks were well on their way out by the mid-1960s leaving the Arrow as the primary fighter.  In an alternate universe, I can see the CF-100s being relegated to a ground attack role as they did have it as a secondary role. Just never applied.  I wonder if the CF-100 would be serving into the 1990s as only a few Mark 5s served into the 1980s as ECM platforms.  Those were tough airframes though.  Engine life was a primary limiter as the Orendas were no longer in production at the time the bulk of the CF-100 fleet was retired. 

If the USA never provided stop-gap fighters in the form of the Voodoo and subsequent CF-5 and CF-104 licenses until the introduction of the CF-188 Hornet in the 1980s, what did Canada use for the next generation?  The Arrow would be in the same place as the F-102 and F-106 by the late 1970s.  Getting long on airframe life, dated in fire control.  Upgrades would keep them going.  All depends on how many Mark 2s and Mark 3s were built and the follow-ons to the Iroquois.  Keep in mind at the time of the Iroquois' design it had no equal in the world.  They were looking worldwide to sell it to Britain, France, etc as an engine for their fighters.  Had the Arrow survived, we'd be looking at Iroquois powered Mirage and Lightnings! 

Would the Tornado even exist?  It was a multinational project to spread the risk across shrinking defense budgets in Europe and encourage common capability in NATO.  Is there a NATO?  Not by the sounds of it.  If America is getting uppity with the Brit's Commonwealth on their northern border, would the Crown even be able to spare resources for the Canadians?  And what would they be?  There would likely be no Fleet Air Arm F-111s, no F-4K.  Some interesting concepts here: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?49454-Several-western-aircraft-concepts-that-were-never-built.  Interestingly, I own the book those images come out of.  You might find the proposed British supersonic VSTOL and Harrier-esque concepts interesting in lieu of Tornado to follow the Lightnings and Buccaneers.

The Arrow would have also been a brutal high-level recon or low-level strike aircraft with updates.  The airframe was certainly capable well into Mach 2 with Mach 3+ speeds and enhancements proposed for it.  With the internal weapons bay, TF radar, Iroquois turbofans and high wing loading, it would be a nasty interdictor. 

Who gets stealth?  If the Russians are still at it and Americans are sitting it out, no Cold War incentives to fight the Red Menace.  Or not at least the paranoia that drove a lot of it or the creation of an immediate Iron Curtain.  Any great bomber fleets?  ICBMs?  What if the someone else did Petr Ufimstev's work?  Instead of Dennis Overholser you had Jim Chamberlain stumbling onto the magic formula of stealth in the 1970s?  Instead of Have Blue, you have a Hawker "Crown Jewel" instead of the Hopeless Diamond?

The "What If" instead history can drive a lot of neat stuff.  Projects that were gleams in the eyes or paper designs made real.  Things that came to pass never do.

Looking forward to hearing more!

Matt

[Go4fun]

Interesting concept.  What is the history leading up to 1991 and relations between Canada and the USA?

Clearly, you've indicated that development continued on the Avro Arrow rather than have it being canceled in 1959.  As the intended replacement for the CF-100, it would supplant the CF-100 in the interceptor role.  The Clunks were well on their way out by the mid-1960s leaving the Arrow as the primary fighter.  In an alternate universe, I can see the CF-100s being relegated to a ground attack role as they did have it as a secondary role. Just never applied.  I wonder if the CF-100 would be serving into the 1990s as only a few Mark 5s served into the 1980s as ECM platforms.  Those were tough airframes though.  Engine life was a primary limiter as the Orendas were no longer in production at the time the bulk of the CF-100 fleet was retired.  

If the USA never provided stop-gap fighters in the form of the Voodoo and subsequent CF-5 and CF-104 licenses until the introduction of the CF-188 Hornet in the 1980s, what did Canada use for the next generation?  The Arrow would be in the same place as the F-102 and F-106 by the late 1970s.  Getting long on airframe life, dated in fire control.  Upgrades would keep them going.  All depends on how many Mark 2s and Mark 3s were built and the follow-ons to the Iroquois.  Keep in mind at the time of the Iroquois' design it had no equal in the world.  They were looking worldwide to sell it to Britain, France, etc as an engine for their fighters.  Had the Arrow survived, we'd be looking at Iroquois powered Mirage and Lightnings!  

Would the Tornado even exist?  It was a multinational project to spread the risk across shrinking defense budgets in Europe and encourage common capability in NATO.  Is there a NATO?  Not by the sounds of it.  If America is getting uppity with the Brit's Commonwealth on their northern border, would the Crown even be able to spare resources for the Canadians?  And what would they be?  There would likely be no Fleet Air Arm F-111s, no F-4K.  Some interesting concepts here: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?49454-Several-western-aircraft-concepts-that-were-never-built.  Interestingly, I own the book those images come out of.  You might find the proposed British supersonic VSTOL and Harrier-esque concepts interesting in lieu of Tornado to follow the Lightnings and Buccaneers.

The Arrow would have also been a brutal high-level recon or low-level strike aircraft with updates.  The airframe was certainly capable well into Mach 2 with Mach 3+ speeds and enhancements proposed for it.  With the internal weapons bay, TF radar, Iroquois turbofans and high wing loading, it would be a nasty interdictor.  

Who gets stealth?  If the Russians are still at it and Americans are sitting it out, no Cold War incentives to fight the Red Menace.  Or not at least the paranoia that drove a lot of it or the creation of an immediate Iron Curtain.  Any great bomber fleets?  ICBMs?  What if the someone else did Petr Ufimstev's work?  Instead of Dennis Overholser you had Jim Chamberlain stumbling onto the magic formula of stealth in the 1970s?  Instead of Have Blue, you have a Hawker "Crown Jewel" instead of the Hopeless Diamond?

The "What If" instead history can drive a lot of neat stuff.  Projects that were gleams in the eyes or paper designs made real.  Things that came to pass never do.

Looking forward to hearing more!

Matt

I imagine Canada would have licensed build rights from Britain rather easily for a upgrade to the CF-100. How could I leave the Arrow out of the mix? I've seens too many wonderful ideas about it here in "What If"!
And seeing as one of the Secondary targets is a well built Cinderblock National Guard armory maybe a couple of Victors for gas trucks and two Buccs for bomb trucks would be a better ballance.

[kitnut617]

Actually they DID make Harriers with longer wings! 

The GR1s, and presumably the T2s and GR3s as well, could have 'ferry tips' installed outboard of the outrigger landing gear fairings to improve their range although I understand it was very rarely used in service. They weren't all that longm just enough to improve the wing's aspect ratio and the Trans-Atlantic race aircraft used them so they must thave worked reasonalby well.

The Heller Bobcat 1/72 Harrier T2 comes with the extended wingtips (I should know, I've got five of them)

[Daryl J.]

Don't forget about dealing with Montana and N. Dakota.  At that time the two states had about 1/3 the worlds known nuclear arsenal.  It seems like there are Minuteman III silos all over out there.  Then there are the air bases at Malmstrom, Minot, Grand Forks, Fortuna, and Rapid City.  In theory, the B-52 base at Glasgow could be brought back online with minimal effort.   The missile defense facility near Conrad, MT would need to be dealt with as well, likely with non-conventional means, as it is largely a huge bunker.  It was never finished but was close to completion when the project was abandoned and could also be brought up rapidly.   

HTH

[Go4fun]

The British used nukes both tactical and stratigic on the US and I think the Russians hit the 'Fields of Dreams' fields of Montana and North Dakota.
The US has few allies in this war.

[Go4fun]

If you need the mission to help out, here it is.
1: To clear the airspace of a small number of helicopters suspected to be AH-1 Cobra gunships.
2: To attack a column of M-901 Improved TOW Vehicles, M-113 Armored Personnel Carrier and U.S. Army Jeeps in support of a band of American   Army of Liberation fighters.
3: To attack if possible a Kansas Army Nation Guard armory with non-envolved population 100 meters to the west in Lawrence Kansas.
4: To hit any other enemy targets of opportunity that present themselves.

[Go4fun]

Here is a link to the group I am posting this story in if anyone wants to study it.

https://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/groups/182020478587509/

[Go4fun]

I worked out a few things and then went with my best ideas using your help. Thanks a lot guys. 
Now I have a new question. (Pesky little fellow, ain't I?). 
I know the P-51 Mustang has been built and rebuilt and copied every since WW II. I know they were still flying it in South America as an Interdiction Fighter up until like 20 years ago. What was this copies name and designator?

Here is what I'm thinking: In My world the American military kept building things even as an Isolationist Government ran it. And as the Military held a lot of power they kept building aircraft until replacements were brought 'on line'.
If you know our government you know they try to hold onto everything. They park airplanes that are like new and keep them stored until they fall apart then junk them.
What are the posibility that there are 'Like New' P-51s, P-38s and other fighter, bomber and other aircraft scattered about in hiden dirt strip bases??