Alpha Jet

[Nick]

I've just seen an Alphajet painted in RAF ground attack colours.
Look here in the Roundels section if you don't believe me:  :TT  
[a href=\"http://www.serials.uk.com/\" target=\"_blank\"]http://www.serials.uk.com/[/a]
This site could be good for working what alternative RAF aircraft numbers to use.

What other trainer aircraft could the RAF have bought for licence-build by BAe if the Hawk wasn't up to scratch?

Nick  :G



[!--EDIT|Nick|Dec. 06 2002,12:35--]

[Martin H]

Sorry Nick  that isnt an RAF cammo scheme/color combination.  The DERA Alpha's are operated in RAF markings but wearing the last veriation of the Luftwaffe cammo that they last saw service in. The only reason we ended up with Alphajets enyway, is because HMG wouldnt pay for new Hawks, and 2nd hand ones are like hens teeth. Infact we did recently lay our hands on a few ex Indonisian examples as attrition replacements a few months back. If i remember corretly we paid way over the market price for em as well.

[Tophe]

In the magazine Le Fana de l'Aviation Nr 416, I have found this weird trainer project of the 1970s. At least John Howling Mouse will appreciate: some engineers love T-tails juste like him...  

[nev]

Well, my French is poor, but that caption seems to read something like "Eurotrainer proposed by Aerospatiale & MBB", so I'm guessing its an early design of the Alphajet?

[Tophe]

Well, my French is poor, but that caption seems to read something like "Eurotrainer proposed by Aerospatiale & MBB", so I'm guessing its an early design of the Alphajet?

Your guessing was right, Nev. Well, if you have a problem reading French or German, Dutch, Italian etc. Just copy the text you have and go to Alta Vista Babel Fish (free translator  ) at  http://world.altavista.com/tr
Of course it is not completely perfect, but you can unserstand. Here that gave << The "Eurotrainer", proposed by the Aerospace Frenchwoman and German company MBB>>. (replace Aerospace Frenchwoman by French Aérospatiale company, and that is all). 

so I'm guessing its an early design of the Alphajet?

Huh, I think this is not a forefather of the Alpha-Jet but a rival. The Alpha-Jet was proposed by the French Dassault company (not Aérospatiale) and the German Dornier (not MBB). But I think the weight, size, performance, Larzac jets were exactly the same...

not a forefather of the Alpha-Jet but a rival

Explanation from Jane's All the World Aircraft 1971-1972 :

[nev]

Huh, I think this is not a forefather of the Alpha-Jet but a rival. The Alpha-Jet was proposed by the French Dassault company (not Aérospatiale) and the German Dornier (not MBB).

ahhh...I was not aware of that.  Thanks for the explanation.

A perfect subject for one of the European cottage industry companies such as Anigrand perhaps?

I've never liked the looks of the Alpha Jet, this one looks much nicer.

Or maybe a Magister 2000?  Suggestions for updating the old bird welcome

[Tophe]

I've never liked the looks of the Alpha Jet

The initial project was not ugly, according to me...
(still from Jane's All the World Aircraft 1971-72)

[Tophe]

The initial project was not ugly

To compare (I hope this will not be on a Page 2...), here is the final Alpha-Jet; from Jane's All the World Aircraft 1980-81 :

[Tophe]

Or maybe a Magister 2000?  Suggestions for updating the old bird welcome

Uh, don't you know the actual update of the Fouga Magister : Aérospatiale Fouga 90? Here is a photograph of the prototype, still from Jane's All the World Aircraft 1980-81 What-if this one had been selected?...

[nev]

I agree, that first Alpha Jet looks much sleeker.

I'm not sure about that Magister 90 though, its like a Magister, only squished up  :dum:  

[Tophe]

I'm not sure about that Magister 90 though, its like a Magister, only squished up  :dum:

According to my Oxford dictionary, Squish means Marmalade
According to Babel Fish, Squished up means "Ecrasé vers le haut" (Crushed upwards)  
Well, here are the details, from Jane's All the World Aiecraft 1969-70:

[Jschmus]

I've always thought the Alpha Jet was kind of dumpy-looking.  That Magister, though, looks pretty cool.  I always thought the original, with the V-tail, was kind of odd, but the update works.

[Swamphen]

I'm not sure about that Magister 90 though, its like a Magister, only squished up  :dum:

You're right - looks like someone took it between thumb and finger and squeezed...    

[ysi_maniac]

IMHO this is one of the most beautiful planes, but it has always been critizised by high maintenance effort required by its engines Turbomeca/SNECMA Larzac. So what if equipping this plane with:

RB-199
F-404
2xJ-85
other engine options?

Other alternative: 1 seat fighter with interception radar.

[AeroplaneDriver]

Adours may be a good option.  I think the RB.199 & F404 might be a bit big.

The Argentine IA63 Pampa is essentially a single engine Alpha Jet and has a 3,500lb thrust TFE731 engine (a common business jet turbofan).  The Adour in the newest Hawk variants are around 6,500lb thrust, so a single Adour powered Alpha shold do quite well.

Since the Hawk and Alpha were direct competitors when they were introduced it would be interesting to take the Alpha through the same progression as the Hawk; single seat radar equipped light fighter and updated two seater like the Hawk 100.