B-52 CEP in Vietnam

[KJ_Lesnick]

I've been looking around and I can't find anything regarding the B-52's CEP during the Vietnam era: Assuming it's not classified anybody know what it is?

[Jschmus]

By CEP, I'm assuming you mean Circular Error Probable, which is an effect which differs from weapon to weapon.

[pyro-manic]

Accuracy generally isn't called for when carpet-bombing.

Quote from Wikipedia:

Twenty-seven Stratofortresses dropped on a one-mile by two-mile target box from between 19,000 and 22,000 feet, a little more than 50% of the bombs falling within the target zone.

That was the opening mission of Operation Arc Light, in 1965. 750lb bombs used.

[rickshaw]

Hasn't really improved all that much since WWII, when you think about it.

[Old Wombat]

When every little air-stream buffet or gust of wind at altitude can swing the bomb even a couple of degrees off-trajectory it ain't going to, either. Not with unguided munitions, anyway, &, with the cost difference between 50 tonnes of unguided munitions vs the cost of 50 tonnes of guided munitions, guess how soon that's going to change.



Guy

[rickshaw]

Already changed.  Changed back in '91 against Iraq.   It isn't so much the cost differential that is important, it's the cost-benefit analysis of not missing.   Why use 100 bombs when 1 or 2 will do the same job and be guaranteed to hit?

[Old Wombat]

I was talking specifically about area or "carpet" bombing (which may, possibly, still have applications against a more sophisticated enemy who can hide his assets (eg: fuel/ammunition dumps) better in a given area). Sytems which keep bombs targetted within a bombing area should, I think, be relatively cheap per unit but if you're "carpet" bombing an area of 2 sq miles.... that's a lot of bombs.



Guy

[Captain Canada]

Always wondered why they didn't carpet bomb a few mountains in Afghanistan, just to send a message.

[Go4fun]

Always wondered why they didn't carpet bomb a few mountains in Afghanistan, just to send a message.

Because most of the B-52s were in storage for the most part.

[Old Wombat]

Always wondered why they didn't carpet bomb a few mountains in Afghanistan, just to send a message.

Because it would have been a waste of effort, bombs & money?

Remember, the Taliban & Al Qaeda in Afghanistan tend to hide out in villages (which we don't can't bomb indiscriminately on moral grounds) or in the many deep caves in the mountains, which protect them from regular HE bombs & they know this. Now, a few targetted penetrators on specific, identified cave targets would have much more effect & impact.

In general, rickshaw is right; if you can find your target & hit it with pin-point accuracy with one or two guided weapons you should do so. If you know there is a  high-value target within a given area but can't pin-point exactly where it is, that is where area bombing comes into its own. Unfortunately, almost 50% of your bombs falling outside the target area is extremely inefficient, so some sort of basic guidance to keep the bombs in the target area would drastically improve the efficiency of the drop but would, given the large number of munitions, be much more expensive.



Guy

[rickshaw]

"Carpet bombing" is more a journalistic than military term.

Wombles, while you are basically correct but I'll point out that with modern reconniassance techniques its nearly impossible to hide any sort of supply dump of any size.  The traffic in and out reveals it's presence and while various masking techniques can be applied they won't work against multi-spectrum analysis.  Most military forces now try and use both mis-direction and redundancy.   

I once learnt a load of tricks from my elders about how to disperse supply dumps.  As a supply company we ended up defending an area five times the size of a normal infantry battalion's Area of Responsibility.  We were very thin on the ground and had to mount patrols through our own AR to make sure that no enemy would have interferred with our supply stacks.

AIUI, when calling in strategic bombers you use four figure grid references, not the normal six or eight figure ones for more precise forms of fire support. 

[Captain Canada]

I still like the 'shock and awe' that can be brought on by the act.....maybe not as effective strategically, and I know you don't want to harm civilians....but still, the sight of a bunch of B-52s overhead ?

[Weaver]

How much more expensive is a GPS-guided munition than a dumb bomb? I though the former were supposed to be relatively cheap?

I wonder if you could do "accurate area bombing" by either:

1. Having one truly smart bomb and a load more that follow it in via some kind of cheap station-keeping system

2. Having what amounts to a giant cluster bomb: a very large single, guided container that spews out loads of (for instance) 250lb bombs when it gets low enough for them not to drift too far off target.

[darthspud]

I thought most 'smart' bombs were basic bombs with 'smart' nose and tails added on?
Not being an armourer i'm just going on generally available info.

[rickshaw]

Today, it would be possible to build a small, cheap, GPS guided add on kit for what were essentially "dumb" bombs in the past.

All it would need would be a small set of fins with trim tabs on their rear and small servos, like they use for RC models to power them.  The guidance system is pre-programmed with the co-ords of where you want them to hit and it moves the trim tabs and the aerodynamic forces move the fins and the fins move the bombs.  As long as all you're interested in is hitting a relatively large "box", they would be accurate enough to do that (if you were really fancy, you could take it to six or eight figure co-ords and produce a "pattern" covering the whole area evenly or concentrated on a smaller single target).   If you really wanted to be fancy, you could use wifi to program the bombs en-route or even just before they exit the bomb bay.

Such a kit if produced in numbers would come in at only a couple of hundred dollars or less, I'd expect.  When compared to the cost of missing, it's very cheap indeed.   You could of course alternatively add a laser seeker instead.  With the cost of such coming down appreciably to the point where they can be added to 2.75in rockets, it wouldn't be much more than my proposed GPS kit.  If you coded the lasers, you could "paint" points across a whole grid square and have each bomb home in on a different one.   However, laser seeking bombs are not true "fire-and-forget" weapons, whereas GPS guided ones are.