MTB or MAS Carriers

[tigercat]

For Convoy protection  how feasible would be a  conversion similar in concept to the MAC ships but instead of carrying aircraft carrying attack craft so  AS boats for combating submarine threats or a MTB for taking out Surface raiders.

[Rheged]

For Convoy protection  how feasible would be a  conversion similar in concept to the MAC ships but instead of carrying aircraft carrying attack craft so  AS boats for combating submarine threats or a MTB for taking out Surface raiders.

Could one use a whale factory ship as a tanker, and use the slipway at the stern for launching MTBs, or would it be too much of a target?

[Weaver]

Assuming we're talking WWII technology, I don't think the ASW boat idea would work: it wouldn't be able to carry ASDIC itself and it's prop/engine noise would only confuse matters for ASDIC operators on the destroyers and/or mother-ship.

The MTB might work: it all depends on:

1. How fast/reliably can you launch/recover it?

2. How do you control it?

3. What sea states do you need to operate in? (MTBs are no fun in an Atlantic swell, Hell, 900 ton corvettes arn't either.... )


In daylight on the open sea, an MTB attacking a surface raider would get shot to ribbons. However at night or in dusk/dawn conditions it might be different. It might also be useful in deterring night surface attacks by subs (which were a favorite tactic) : they're going to be a lot less willing to try to sneak into the convoy if there are MTBs haring about all over the place with searchlights blazing...

[Thorvic]

The German Q ships raiders did carry light Torpedo craft and float planes in addition to their complement of hidden guns and torpedoes.

The problem with the concept is that its not easy to deploy or recover such craft at sea especially in rough conditions. The MTB/MGB were coastal craft designed for operations in the relatively calm coastal waters. You would be better off having trainable torpedo mounts and additional guns for defensive use as easier to bring into action.

[Old Wombat]

Yep, putting more British/American Q-ships & armed merchantmen in the convoys would be a bigger deterent to both submarines & surface raiders than lightly built, fragile MTB's/MGB's/MAS boats.

Once you start getting torpedo boats big enough for the Atlantic & able to hunt submarines you're getting into corvette territory, & corvettes are too big to sneak up on, & too under-gunned to challenge a surface raider.



Guy

[tigercat]

I'm assuming that the british steam gun boats would  be too big even if launched from something luje  a landing ship gantry

[rickshaw]

I'm assuming that the british steam gun boats would  be too big even if launched from something luje  a landing ship gantry

If you're referring to the Grey Goose SGBs, then yes, they were.  The major problem with this idea has already been mentioned - sea keeping.  Small boats don't do well in North Atlantic Swells.  They also tend to lack range, needing frequent refuelling.   Disembarking/Embarking problems in heavy swells present particular difficulties.   Also, the problem both ASW detection gear and weapons present particular difficulties.  A well commanded, determined U-Boat could easily fight off, on the surface an MTB/MGB.  Afterall the U-Boat mounted an 88mm, plus at least (depending on stage of the war) one or more 20mm weapons and in the earlier stages of the war, surface action was the norm, not the exception when attacking convoys.

Weaver, ASDIC was an active detection system.  An early version of Sonar.  The presence of the MTB's engines wouldn't confuse it.  They may confuse hydrophones but the RN only used them as a secondary detection method, because of their unreliability and lack of precise direction finding.  The MTB would be able to carry ASDIC but it would consume a lot of the hull in doing so (and reduce the speed of the MTB because of the very large ASDIC dome).  Weapons for the MTB would be rather limited.  They and MGBs used to regularly carry depth charges (for use against other surface craft) but only a small number because of their size and weight, which would limit their ability to engage in any extended contacts.  Torpedoes would be useless against U-Boats and their light armament, as already mentioned a chancy thing to use.   

[PR19_Kit]

 Torpedoes would be useless against U-Boats and their light armament, as already mentioned a chancy thing to use.  

Why?

So long as they could hit it a torpedo would seem to be the ideal weapon to use against a sub. Shoving a large chunk of high explosive right up against an un-armoured but admittedly strong hull at some speed has got to better than banging away at it with smaller shells surely?

[rickshaw]

Well, perhaps I should have qualified that, Kit with "against a submerged U-Boat", which was what I meant.  Even against a surfaced one, it would be pretty difficult to achieve a hit except at relatively close range.  Most effective torpedo attacks were made with a salvo, spread, to make it nearly impossible for a manoeuvring target to escape.   Even submarines used to fire a salvo to ensure a hit, despite what Hollywood would have you believe.

[tahsin]

Early in the war it might actually been quite useful as a depth charger, as far as handling issues allow. It seems early Asdic had a dead zone about a 1000 yards and and contact with the U-Boots would be lost right before the attack. I believe it took quite a time for this to be discovered and the solution was two destroyers chasing each other, the one in the rear controlling the engagement and the first one charging.

[tigercat]

What about an old submarine converted for surface  action like they did in WW1 . I imagine even the coastal ones would have been too heavy to launch from a ship. Plus thye might get rammed by their own side.

What about a midget submarine for protection not just of Allied but Axis convoys. If only of the pyrric victory of sinking the attacker after its sunk the mother ship.

Launch the Seehund from a converted warship or merchantman or am i straying into flights of fantasy...
 

[NARSES2]

What about a midget submarine for protection not just of Allied but Axis convoys. If only of the pyrric victory of sinking the attacker after its sunk the mother ship.

Launch the Seehund from a converted warship or merchantman or am i straying into flights of fantasy...
 

Nothing wrong with that 

Problem with a midget sub would be speed, they were slow especially submerged. My Dad quite often talked about the difficulty of spotting U-Boats on the surface in daylight let alone at night, especially in N Atlantic conditions, so a small boat like an MTB without the advantage of height would have difficulty finding the target. However given the desperate need to try and protect the convoys anything might have been tried. Just look at the MAC ships. So maybe just maybe they might try and rig up an old whaling ship to carry small attack boats which would be expendable to a certain extent. Launch a fair few of them, armed with 20mm and just hope their buzzing around puts the attacking subs off. Might work initially while most attacks were on the surface and while the Germans were trying to figure out what was going on ?

[Weaver]

Just a thought: if the object of the exercise is to buzz around the convoy at night to stop/deter U-boats from getting in amongst it on the surface, but the problem is the range of weather conditions that you can operate small boats in, then why not design the boat something like a modern lifeboat, i.e. pretty much fully enclosed and capsize-proof? That might make it difficult to mount useful weapons (although RAF launch-style aircraft turrets might be doable), but the point is that it doesn't have to engage the U-boat at all, just find it with it's remote-controlled spotlights and radio it's position in, which will bring a real destroyer charging across to engage it properly. The boat could carry parachute flares to be fired on contact so that even if it's radio goes u/s it can still show up the u-boat's position AND help the destroyer to engage.

In other words, the patrol boat is not so much a soldier as a security guard with a torch, a radio and a whistle.

[tigercat]

Hms fidelity had her own mtb. Does anyone know how she would have launched it and what kind it was ? Unfortunately she's a bit of a mystery ship.

I like that idea. You could probably get a 20mm cannon in  a raf style turret.

[MikeD]

Small boats don't do well in North Atlantic Swells.

Sometimes neither do 45,000 ton battleships or 30,000 ton carriers...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mwjrf0gZjIE