Soviet AAM question.....

[Army of One]

Hello.....does anybody know if an aircraft that can carry Sidewinders can carry R60 or R73's...... Got a few a/c in later stages of building and want to change the western load out for eastern one.....I believe the R73 can be slaved/assisted by a helmet mounted sight.......but it's not essential.....(where's the shrugging smiley....?) I have also read that it can perform a 180 immediately after firing but the launch a/c must be equipped with a tail protection system enabling targeting in the rear hemisphere......(soviet a/c weapons by Yefim Gordon p33....) any help much appreciated.....H

[Dizzyfugu]

I know that Pakistani MiG-19 were (locally) equipped/modified to carry Sidewinders, but I haven't heard of a Soviet/Russian built aircraft that was compatible with Western missiles. Some companies offered avionics upgrades, e. g. for MiG-21s, like IAI from Israel, Romania. Respective updates from Russia were AFAIK confined to weapons/AAMs of local origin.

Some Chinese designs carry locally built copies of Western AAMs, like the Italian Aspide (an AIM-7 Sparrow derivate) or the Matra Magic - but I do not know how different these missiles are internally from the original, or how much different the Chinese avionics behind them are to Russian or Western technology.

Anyway, something Chinese is always good in order to justify weird technologicak/cultural mash-ups... 

[Army of One]

Ah....bum....!! Thought it might be a simple case of hang it on.....didn't think it would be that difficult, but then this is whiff world.......thanks Goethe input Dizzy, much appreciated.......H

[NARSES2]

Now I swear that somewhere I've read of Mig and Sukhoi offering Mig 29's and Su whatevers  that are compatible with Western weapons systems. Obviously broadens the prospective sales base. Doesn't help historically I know.

[Mr.Creak]

There's a photo floating round on the net of a Su-27 carrying AMRAAM (and I noticed at Farnboro' one year there was a Su-27 with a TIALD), and, as Dizzyfugu mentioned, the Israeli/ Romanian MiG-21 LanceR can carry Western weapons: IIRC it can carry and use ANY NATO/ Russian weapon that's within its weight limits.
Presumably it's a software change, launch parameters and the like - easily done in Whifworld.
Then again... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo4-L7tNdVM

[Army of One]

So......in real world, maybe an external change re the launch rail then.... Any proper stuff be inside....??
That's cool.....I can live with that.....

[Weaver]

I believe Finland has managed to put R-60s (AA-8 Aphids) onto it's Hawks with the use of an adaptor rail and some black boxes.

In general, integrating any missile onto any aircraft is much less straight-forward than people imagine, and doubly so when the missile and the aircraft come from different engineering/military backgrounds. Even putting AIM-9B (one of the simplest missiles to integrate ever) onto the Pakistani MiG-19s required a substantial development effort involving a team from the USA. The modern use of data-buses and software-driven systems doesn't neccessarily ease this, because while, on the one hand, it removes many of the physical engineering requirements for different black boxes and the like, on the other hand, the weapons and systems are inherently more complex and their ful internal logic may not be easily accessible or modifiable by the end-user.

[rickshaw]

The Mig-19 used by the Pakistanis weren't designed to carry missiles nor were they built to, which perhaps why they had so much difficulty integrating even something as simple as the AIM-9B into them.  They had to install the electronics and then plumb the wings and hard points for the data cabling.

As Weaver points out, swapping missiles relies on a lot of factors most people don't consider, such as data cabling, connectors (does the hard point have the correct ones for the missile and of course, every missile is different).  Then you have the "black boxes", the electronics which drive the missile guidance system and it's interface with the aircraft.  Unless they match or are designed to be reprogrammed to accept inputs and interpret them for the missile, the missile guidance system simply won't work.  Think the differences between a Macintosh and a PC.

Projects to make missile work with aircraft they were never designed for cost tens if not hundreds of millions to create and complete.   Think of the Swiss problems integrating Hughes Falcon missiles to Mirage IIIs if you want an example.  All the projects I know of have tended to be putting Western missiles on Eastern aircraft not the t'other way 'round.

Of course, this being the WIFverse, anything is possible.

[Army of One]

Weaver....first line of your post is music to my ears.....!!! Not that nation though....
Thanks to those that have taken the time to post...much appreciated....H

[Weaver]

As Weaver points out, swapping missiles relies on a lot of factors most people don't consider, such as data cabling, connectors (does the hard point have the correct ones for the missile and of course, every missile is different).  Then you have the "black boxes", the electronics which drive the missile guidance system and it's interface with the aircraft.  Unless they match or are designed to be reprogrammed to accept inputs and interpret them for the missile, the missile guidance system simply won't work.  Think the differences between a Macintosh and a PC.

Cooling can also be an issue: some IR missiles have liquid nitrogen coolant supplied to them from a bottle in the aircraft before launch. IIRC, that's what the "missile support pack" between a Lightning's Firestreak/Red Top pylons was mostly about.

This is an issue for some versions of Sidewinder too. Not sure if I've got this the right way round, but I think it's "Navy" versions that use liquid nitrogen from a bottle in the rail and "Air Force" ones that use Peltier cell cooling that doesn't need it.

[pyro-manic]

Just DO it!

The more modern the aircraft and weapon, the easier it should be to integrate (as long as whoever is doing the work has full technical access to the systems - something I know the US has been very reluctant to provide in the past) - the work needing to be done would primarily be software to get the aircraft's systems talking to the missile (possibly with a new launch rail to allow the crossover data connections to be made) rather than the mass of hardware needed for older weapons and aircraft. I know it's not that simple, but it works as an explanation!

[Army of One]

It will be done....when I get time on my days off during the week.....