2014 Group Build discussion

[kitbasher]

There is, also, the point that Germany & Britain were knocking heads more frequently over colonial matters in the late-19th & early-20th centuries (esp. in Africa & the Asia/Pacific region) which may have led to a different start-point &, maybe, a different main theatre of operations, with the war being much further removed from Europe (at least initially).

Direct points of contact were to be found between Neu Guinea/Papua, the Gold Coast/Togoland, Nigeria/Kamerun, German East Africa/British East Africa/Uganda/Northern Rhodesia, German South West Africa/North & South Rhodesia/Bechuanaland/South Africa & South Africa, with its ex-Dutch, pro-German Afrikaaner majority, was a powder keg waiting to explode in the face of Britain. Then there were all the island groups in the Pacific.

So, what if WW1 began as a sort of large scale inter-colonial war that got out of hand?



Guy

Interesting points from Guy.  Much closer to home is Heligoland: given the 'Dreadnaught Race' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreadnought#Anglo-German_arms_race) and the to-ing and fro-ing over 'ownership' in the 19th Century and beyond, who's to say this wouldn't have been a flashpoint that eventually precipitated WW1?

[rickshaw]

Once there, working in a succession of menial positions he manages to purchase a rifle and find out the itinerary of the monarch.  Ensconced in a hidey hole, overlooking the route George V is to travel, he shoots and kills him.


The London School Book Depository?

I was thinking more the Midlands School Book Depository. 

I was wondering if anybody was going to notice the heavy-handed hints...

I am not sure much would change.  Ferdinand's assasination was not so much the cause of WWI as the excuse for it.  Something else would have happened.

Exactly.  Ferdie's death was merely the spark which lit the powder train that had been laid.

The real cause of WWI was IMHO, the lack of civilian control by the German government over their military.  Once Schlieffen had created his plan, war was inevitable.   The problem was that the Germans only had one plan.  No matter what the situation, the answer was simple - INVADE FRANCE!  Arch-Duke Ferdinand gets assassinated?  Invade France!  Serbs and Austrians trade shots across the boarder?  Invade France!   Russia mobilises?  Invade France!   Have a show down at an Oasis in the middle of the Sahara?  Invade France!   With that sort of monomania at work, war was inevitable.

Everything was pushing towards war in Europe.  A rigid alliance system, a stupid German Kaiser who was more interested in the trappings of office and not the responsibilities, a rigid German response to all inevitabilities, etc., etc.

The only way IMHO to fulfil Narses' brief - Europe's map was to remain largely the same was to change the major dynamics, not by saving Ferdinand but by upsetting the Allies' applecart and killing IMO the key player on the British side, George V.   With him gone, Haig no longer has his main protector and he gets sacked and so the "Periphery school" gets it's way and the Western Front is downgraded, which helps the Germans stave off defeat.  A negotiated settlement results and Europe's main continental power, Germany is largely left intact and the status quo remains.

[rickshaw]

There is, also, the point that Germany & Britain were knocking heads more frequently over colonial matters in the late-19th & early-20th centuries (esp. in Africa & the Asia/Pacific region) which may have led to a different start-point &, maybe, a different main theatre of operations, with the war being much further removed from Europe (at least initially).

Direct points of contact were to be found between Neu Guinea/Papua, the Gold Coast/Togoland, Nigeria/Kamerun, German East Africa/British East Africa/Uganda/Northern Rhodesia, German South West Africa/North & South Rhodesia/Bechuanaland/South Africa & South Africa, with its ex-Dutch, pro-German Afrikaaner majority, was a powder keg waiting to explode in the face of Britain. Then there were all the island groups in the Pacific.

So, what if WW1 began as a sort of large scale inter-colonial war that got out of hand?



Guy

Problem is the UK's Royal Navy did rule the seas.  The Germans start at an immediate disadvantage in such a conflict, they have to get their forces out of Europe to overseas in the face of a massive and belligerent Royal Navy.  Therefore, while conflicts may have started "out there", the conflict wouldn't stay "out there" for very long.   Then you have the monomania of the German High Command that their only response to any crisis was to invade France.

Germany, despite all its rhetoric was even before the war stopping further colonial expansion.  Colonialism simply wasn't economic.  Most of the German colonies were essentially bankrupt. To be frank the Germans came into the colonialism game late, got the leftovers which weren't worth anything and found suddenly they were pouring more money into their overseas possessions than they were getting back. While National Pride wouldn't allow them to admit it, getting rid of the colonies was perhaps the best thing to happen to Germany.   It meant there was no longer any major drain on their economy and the best and brightest weren't being lured overseas with false promises of fame and fortune.  

[Old Wombat]

So, an attempt (ostensibly local) to take over one of Britain's more profitable colony's might not be out of the question?



Guy

[rickshaw]

So, an attempt (ostensibly local) to take over one of Britain's more profitable colony's might not be out of the question?



Guy

It would be for doubtful gain.   The British, particularly the Royal Navy (if it was an island or coastal colony) would snuff it out before it could achieve anything, except see Germany's overseas exports/imports stopped by blockade.  If it was an inland colony, say in Africa, it would take longer but the outcome would be the same.  As long as Germany refrains from attacking on the continent, the more British resources would be allocated to repulsing/retaking the colonial attack and Germany could do nothing.

[NARSES2]

Right

Where's the sad looking smiley waving a white flag when you want one ?

Seriously I've thought long and hard about this and come up with Plan B - see here http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,38038.0.html

Hope this helps but this is what we will be going forward with. Other alternative ideas can always be incorporated within Theme Builds

[perttime]

So, it is 1914 World Map

- If WW1 was avoided, what did Germany accomplish by 1930s - 1940s?
- Was there a Russian Revolution? WW1 gave some opportunities, so the revolution might not have been in 1917. Whoever was in charge in Russia had a border with Sweden. A little tension there wouldn't come as a surprise.

[Geoff]

I like the idea of a low intensity war among the African colonies.- not enough to have the high seas fleets pounding crap out of each other all over the globe, but gunboats and aircraft with the odd u-boot thrown in. Possible use of tanks in the open deserts of GWA??

[Geoff]

Finnish revolution to remove Tzarist/Bolshovik rule

[Geoff]

Could also still have the Alaskan based Tzarist forces slugging it out with the Bolshoviks in Siberia as well

[Geoff]

Hungary v Romania

Austria v        ?

Turkey v Bulgaria

Serbia v everyone

[crudebuteffective]

world war one ends november 1916 with a peace treaty leaving the world map as it is

what would the 20s and 30s have been with the old empires with post ww1 OR LATER technology?

count me in on this one

CBE

[Captain Canada]

I just want an excuse to buy/build some WWI tanks and aeroplanes

[zenrat]

So, No WW1.
Kaiser Bill & George V help their cousin (?) Czar Nicholas with his bolshy problem and Russia remains Imperial.
Britain, horrified at what nearly happened in Russia clamp down on lefty agitators in the colonies.
Australia rises up against the Imperial Yoke led by a young English immigrant going under the pseudonym Shaw but who became more famously known as Lawrence of Australia...

Camels and slouch hats.  Rolls Royce armoured cars with red desert camo.  Whippings by young Indigenous boys...

Alternatively no WW1.  No Galipolli.  No ANZAC spirit and close relationship.
NZ seizes Norfolk Island resulting in a series of naval battles that culminate in Kiwi Navy Dreadnoughts shelling Sydney.

[NARSES2]

So, it is 1914 World Map

- If WW1 was avoided, what did Germany accomplish by 1930s - 1940s?
- Was there a Russian Revolution? WW1 gave some opportunities, so the revolution might not have been in 1917. Whoever was in charge in Russia had a border with Sweden. A little tension there wouldn't come as a surprise.

Yes 1914 World Map

You can have a Russian revolution if you want and it takes any route you want it to.