2014 Group Build discussion

[aston]

However without the impetus of WWI and WWII we'd be lagging today's reality technologically in my view. Not in all fields but in many.

No tanks, aircraft development in the doldrums, the Government of Ireland Act 1914 actually implemented, Rupert Brooke becomes Poet Laureate, the Russian Revolution sooner or later (which?), the League of Nations never exists and Edmund Blackadder becomes Minister for War under Ramsay MacDonald.

..... to return in 1940 to replace Chamberlain, with his famous V sign ...

What if the sequence of powers entering WW1 did not go quite the same in various ways and/or Britain is not drawn in. The Schlieffen Plan works and the Germans are all along the N. French coast (or Britain is and there is a Dunkirk in late September 1914) ...... or someone didn't invent the machine-gun and so WW1 is a war of movement across France (and even Spain!!!).

..... but I'm thinking of the German High Command thinking laterally in its desperation to reduce British dreadnought superiority and Anthony Fokker thinks up a Zeppelin + Fokker DV11 Mistel combination ....

(There is this bit of wiffery from 1871 ...... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_of_Dorking)

[NARSES2]

Right lets be clear on one thing. The build is not restricted to WWI indeed given this scenario WWI as we know it probably wouldn't have happened.

So can I do a Handley Page 0/400 with a bouncing bomb then?    

Of course you can, it could probably use it as a giant wheel for moving down the motorway 

[NARSES2]

However without the impetus of WWI and WWII we'd be lagging today's reality technologically in my view. Not in all fields but in many.

No tanks, aircraft development in the doldrums, the Government of Ireland Act 1914 actually implemented, Rupert Brooke becomes Poet Laureate, the Russian Revolution sooner or later (which?), the League of Nations never exists and Edmund Blackadder becomes Minister for War under Ramsay MacDonald.

In my view ? Yes, yes, yes (with all the problems that would lead to), dunno, later, yes and don't be silly 

[NARSES2]

Russia a little later I think

Sweden invades Norway 10 years after independence?

Now who's going to invade Poland in the '20s - assuming we have a Poland that is.

Austro- Hungary v The Ottomans?

Sorry

Agree re Russian Revolution. Sweden v Norway ? Don't know anything about Scandanavian History other then Finland in WWII and the Winter War so would have to check it out, but why not ? Poland wouldn't exist as such but you could have a Polish revolution perhaps aided in someway by one of the occupying powers trying to set up a satellite state or the Russian part winning independence after your Russian Revolution ?  Austro-Hungary v The Ottoman's ? Brilliant 

[Old Wombat]

The Austro-Hungarian & Ottoman Empires were both on the verge of collapse even before WW1.

Therefore, we could see numerous small wars of independence in Moravia-Bohemia(-Slovakia?), Croatia, Serbia, Macedonia, etc. (plus associated equipment & personnel), in the late-1920's & early-1930's.

Would Mustafa Kemal have become the major military & revolutionary political figure he did? Or would he have become a statistic in a failed military coup, rather than "Atatürk"?



Guy

[NARSES2]

I agree re the A-H and O Empires Guy but you never know they might have managed to pull things together, possibly by Federalisation on the A-H side.

The small wars of independence idea is a good one. You could also have a third or even fourth Balkan War ? The Middle East seceding from the Ottoman's on it's own could get interesting ?

As for Mustafa Kemal. Maybe he comes to prominence in the Third Balkan War. Greece invades Anatolia and he rises to the situation as he did in reality. Maybe if the Sultan's are still in power he keeps them as a titular heads of state ?

[rickshaw]

I am presently considering the options.  I think I shall be making my first biplane.  I have always been drawn towards the "Bloody Paralyser". 

[perttime]

Sweden v Norway ? Don't know anything about Scandanavian History

In real life, Sweden was a poor agricultural country in the 19th century - and didn't get into industrialization quite as fast as many other European countries. The population was increasing rapidly due to "the peace, the smallpox vaccine, and the potatoes". People were moving to America for opportunities.

On a different front, historical factors (no history in slavery or serfdom) and grassroots movements (trade unions, temperance, religious groups) laid foundations for democracy where the farmers' party was quite prominent.

So, drastic actions from the Swedish side would probably require at least a much faster move towards an industrial economy. If they got big and bold enough, they might start thinking about regaining the old superpower status ... if the peace-like domestic politics allowed.

... But which way could they go? Take back Norway? Take back Finland (could be tricky because Finns were thinking about independence)? Go South for Denmark or Poland?

I really don't see Sweden going for offensive action. Defensive certainly.

[Rheged]

How about a  Nordic League.....a group of independent states with a mutual defence treaty.  Norway, Sweden, Denmark  (includung the Faroes,  Iceland and Greenland), Finland and liberation movements for  Estonia , Latvia and Lithuania.

Railway based infantry, small boat based marines and a fair contingent of Arctic ski troops.  Any or all of those fiords might   have Brennan torpedo emplacements or thundering great shore batteries

This scenario gives you several flashpoints........  in the Denmark/Sweden narrows,  a Northern Patrol in the Demark Strait and even a revisiting of the Schleswig- Holstein  question. Germany, Imperial Russia and any of the maritime trading nations might  have interests to defend........

[lancer]

How about a  Nordic League.....a group of independent states with a mutual defence treaty.  Norway, Sweden, Denmark  (includung the Faroes,  Iceland and Greenland), Finland and liberation movements for  Estonia , Latvia and Lithuania.

Railway based infantry, small boat based marines and a fair contingent of Arctic ski troops.  Any or all of those fiords might   have Brennan torpedo emplacements or thundering great shore batteries

This scenario gives you several flashpoints........  in the Denmark/Sweden narrows,  a Northern Patrol in the Demark Strait and even a revisiting of the Schleswig- Holstein  question. Germany, Imperial Russia and any of the maritime trading nations might  have interests to defend........

This is an idea I like and could gey behind. Also, looking at the history of our country and it's connections with Scandanavian/Nordic countries there is a good argument for the UK to be included in that alliance too. Well, at least the Northern part of the country.
Which brings up another idea - A N orth/South split with the northern part going the Nordic route and the southern half going the way the whole of the UK went post 1066...

[NARSES2]

Sweden v Norway ? Don't know anything about Scandanavian History

In real life, Sweden was a poor agricultural country in the 19th century - and didn't get into industrialization quite as fast as many other European countries. The population was increasing rapidly due to "the peace, the smallpox vaccine, and the potatoes". People were moving to America for opportunities.

And yet had an advanced steel industry in terms of quality anyway. My Swedish history is limited to the late 17th early 18th Centuries I'm afraid, and even then is only of a military nature and not of any great depth

How about a  Nordic League.....a group of independent states with a mutual defence treaty.  Norway, Sweden, Denmark  (includung the Faroes,  Iceland and Greenland), Finland and liberation movements for  Estonia , Latvia and Lithuania.

Great idea  

[perttime]

In real life, Sweden was a poor agricultural country in the 19th century - and didn't get into industrialization quite as fast as many other European countries.

And yet had an advanced steel industry in terms of quality anyway.

True. But. During the 19th century, there were some English innovations for producing more steel for cheaper. Swedish iron and steel production couldn't keep up, and declined for a few decades in late 1800s and early 1900s.

[Geoff]

Kingdom of Poland 191x set up be Austro- Hungary.  Tzarist Russia/ Belorus boarder dispute with KoPoland???

[zenrat]

...Would Mustafa Kemal have become the major military & revolutionary political figure he did? Or would he have become a statistic in a failed military coup, rather than "Atatürk"?



Guy

No WW1 so no Armenian Genocide (nothing to distract the eyes of the world).
Armenian war of independance leads to an Armenian state encompassing Lebanon plus parts of what we know as Israel, Jordan, Syria, Turkey and Iraq.  Strong ties with Imperial Russia due to the similarities of their orthodox churches and Russias desire for a route to the Med.
Fast forward to 1938 when Jews expelled by the pretty much everyone start arriving in Southern Armenia (supported by the Pan-African Islamic Empire who see a chance to get the christians out of Jerusalem) clamouring for a homeland...

[NARSES2]

In real life, Sweden was a poor agricultural country in the 19th century - and didn't get into industrialization quite as fast as many other European countries.

And yet had an advanced steel industry in terms of quality anyway.

True. But. During the 19th century, there were some English innovations for producing more steel for cheaper. Swedish iron and steel production couldn't keep up, and declined for a few decades in late 1800s and early 1900s.

Yup. On a IISI (International Iron & Steel Institute) conference in Stockholm we were taken to a couple of the preserved/museum sites and they are fascinating for someone like me who had a love of the industry I worked in. Rather like a Swedish Ironbridge. The UK's inovations enabled the production of lots of cheap steel, the Swedes could still produce some of the real quality stuff competitively however. It's amazing how expensive some of that can be even for non military applications.