I-400 Class Submarines

[Spey_Phantom]

following last weeks reveal of the (re)discovery of an I-400 Submarine off the coast of Hawaii, i have been thinking.
Germany had a an industrial cooperation with Japan and both countries shared theyre technological progress.
(exsample, Japan helped with development of the Graf Zeppelin Aircraft Carrier, later Germany also gave Japan the plans for Jet Engine development,...)

but i have a question, if Japan would have shared the plans of the I-400 with the Germans, would they have modified the ship to enable it to launch V-1 rockets instead of aircraft?
a weapon like this could have been usefull for the Kriegsmarine, in theyre Fürher's plan to strike the US mainland.

[TallEng]

Why not? It might be a bit dangerous shipping the various fuels around to propel the rocket,
But I am sure that it would have been possible.
It all depends on how long it would take to errect the rocket on to its launcher and fuel it up,
And program the flight guidance thingamajig.
Oh and I suppose the Sea would have to calm as well
But apart from that; what could possibly go wrong? 

Regards
Keith

[Rheged]

Is this the place to mention USS Halibut and Regulus missiles???

[famvburg]

The V-1 wasn't a rocket and its pulse-jet engine would burn any kind of petroleum as I have read and the I-400 was diesel powered so was already carrying appropriate fuel.

[jcf]

Post-WWII the US Navy launched the US copy, the JB-2 Loon, from the submarine USS Cusk.



A handful of I-400 type subs launching a handful of V-1s would have had little effect on the war and
would have been just another way for the Nazi command to waste resources better used elsewhere. 

It has been estimated that the monies, materials, people and energies consumed by the V-weapons
programs could have produced 24,000 aircraft, which would have been of more practical use.
Which makes one thankful for the megalomania of the Nazis.

[scooter]

A handful of I-400 type subs launching a handful of V-1s would have had little effect on the war and
would have been just another way for the Nazi command to waste resources better used elsewhere. 

Now, some I-400s with nuclear-tipped V2s?  That's a scary thought.

[PR19_Kit]

Is this the place to mention USS Halibut and Regulus missiles???

I thought I did that somewhere already but it wasn't received well enough for further comment.

[gral_rj]

A handful of I-400 type subs launching a handful of V-1s would have had little effect on the war and
would have been just another way for the Nazi command to waste resources better used elsewhere. 

Now, some I-400s with nuclear-tipped V2s?  That's a scary thought.

Nah, there's something even scarier. M6A1s in a one-way trip plus Unit 731's creations...

[jcf]

The Nazis weren't even close to a nuke and even if they had come up with
something it would have been way too big, and heavy, to fit on a V-2.
Making workable small nukes turned out to be the most difficult task for
the weapons designers.

As to Unit 731, as horrible as that was they were also a long way from turning
their grotesque experiments into useable, effective weapons. A handful of
Seirans with chem or biological weapons would not have altered the strategic
reality.

[Captain Canada]

The idea of launching V-1s from a sub is a good one. Why not ? The V-2 on the other hand would be more trouble. Still, it would make an awesome diorama scene !

[rickshaw]

The Nazis weren't even close to a nuke and even if they had come up with
something it would have been way too big, and heavy, to fit on a V-2.
Making workable small nukes turned out to be the most difficult task for
the weapons designers.

Radiological bombs on the otherhand would fit quite easily onto a V-2.  Launching it though, from a submarine that was rocking and rolling in any form of sea and have it actually hit even a city sized target would take more skill I suspect than the Germans were capable of.  Remember, the V-2 was a purely ballistic missile - it went where it was pointed at the moment of launch, which is why the launching sites all had to be carefully surveyed.   The heaving deck of a submarine would have been quite a bit harder.

As to Unit 731, as horrible as that was they were also a long way from turning
their grotesque experiments into useable, effective weapons. A handful of
Seirans with chem or biological weapons would not have altered the strategic
reality.

Actually, they were turning them into usable, effective weapons.  They were at the end of the war, the world's leaders in the cultivation, harvesting and weaponisation of biological agents.  So much so, that Unit 731's commander, Shiro Ishii, despite his odious experiments on live human captives was given a "get out of gaol card" by the US Occupation Forces in exchange for his knowledge.   Their weapons were starting to be stockpiled in Japan for use against the intended invasion when the war ended.  The Atomic bombs saved more than just Allied lives.

[jcf]

... and what radiological elements would they have used? The truly effective, toxic agents
are produced by nuclear piles, which they didn't have. Radiological weapons and 'dirty bombs'
are a modern day bugaboo and terror weapon, of doubtful effectiveness, in the 1940s all you'd
get from the majority of people would be a quizzical look. Say Radium Bomb and you'd excite the
handful of sci-fi fans, but,once again, most people would just shrug. Hard to generate terror
amongst an ignorant populace.

Even the 'best' of the Unit 731 designs would have had little effect in the small amounts that
a handful of M6A1s would be able to deliver to the US. The US at the time was a very different
target than it is today, especially the West Coast, and even in period a world far different than
the war, famine and disease racked areas of China that Unit 731 used for their field tests.

[alfavega]

The idea of launching V-1s from a sub is a good one. Why not ? The V-2 on the other hand would be more trouble. Still, it would make an awesome diorama scene !

Prüfstand XII

http://www.prinzeugen.com/V2.htm

http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=5728

[rickshaw]

... and what radiological elements would they have used? The truly effective, toxic agents
are produced by nuclear piles, which they didn't have. Radiological weapons and 'dirty bombs'
are a modern day bugaboo and terror weapon, of doubtful effectiveness, in the 1940s all you'd
get from the majority of people would be a quizzical look. Say Radium Bomb and you'd excite the
handful of sci-fi fans, but,once again, most people would just shrug. Hard to generate terror
amongst an ignorant populace.

They could have used various Uranium based elements.  You're right, the really nasty ones can only be produced in a nuclear pile but the Nazis were looking more for terror than actual effect.  They would have gotten more effect and quicker as well, from loading V-2s with Tabun/Sarin.  Thankfully, Hitler's prohibition against Chemical weapons held.

Even the 'best' of the Unit 731 designs would have had little effect in the small amounts that
a handful of M6A1s would be able to deliver to the US. The US at the time was a very different
target than it is today, especially the West Coast, and even in period a world far different than
the war, famine and disease racked areas of China that Unit 731 used for their field tests.

The weapons were intended for the defence of the home islands, not for attacking the continental US.  Hence my comment about the Atomic bombs saving lives.  I do not doubt that if the Japanese had started using chemical and biological weapons, the US would have replied in kind.  The US had a massive Anthrax filling plant already in operation at wars end and chemical weapons ready for movement to the Pacific if required (and plants able to produce more).   Japan would have been turned into a blighted wasteland.

The utility of biological weapons in 1945 were IMO rather questionable but they had a fearsome reputation.  Of all the agents, Anthrax was perhaps the worst and even that would take several days or even weeks to be effective.  There is something deeply horrifying to most people about the idea of disease and plague.   Nowadays you have much worse agents which have been weaponised and the possibility of genetically modified to increase their virulence and lethality.   

[scooter]

There is something deeply horrifying to most people about the idea of disease and plague.   Nowadays you have much worse agents which have been weaponised and the possibility of genetically modified to increase their virulence and lethality.   

Might I point you in the direction of the Clive Cussler novel Black Wind wherein a North Korean sleeper agent plans to rain a nightmare concoction of smallpox and HIV on Los Angeles with a large biowarfare cluster bomb.  It also involves a pair of I-400s.