B-17 vs Avro Lancaster

[PR19_Kit]

wuzak

The signal is sent in morse code - dots or dashes. If the aircraft is too close then it is all dots, if it is too far the signal is all dashes.

Primitive electronics eh?

We ARE talking mid-40s here........

[Mr.Creak]

wuzak

The signal is sent in morse code - dots or dashes. If the aircraft is too close then it is all dots, if it is too far the signal is all dashes.

Primitive electronics eh?

Nah. Efficient, simple and eminently suited to the task.

[wuzak]

wuzak

The signal is sent in morse code - dots or dashes. If the aircraft is too close then it is all dots, if it is too far the signal is all dashes.

Primitive electronics eh?

We ARE talking mid-40s here........

Indeed, when it was introduced it was pretty much state of the art.

And, it has to be said, Oboe was more accurate than visual aiming devices, at least to the Ruhr. Its limitation was the altitude of the aircraft, hence the Mosquito was adoped - because it could fly 10,000+ ft more than the Lancaster. There was also some experimentation with an Oboe repeater aircraft, though there was some difficulty during testing as the radome blew off the aircraft,

[wuzak]

This picture may be of the Oboe Repeata - though it is labelled H2S

[KJ_Lesnick]

Wuzak

And, it has to be said, Oboe was more accurate than visual aiming devices, at least to the Ruhr. Its limitation was the altitude of the aircraft, hence the Mosquito was adoped - because it could fly 10,000+ ft more than the Lancaster.

CEP was only 22.5-45 yards?  Holy poo-poo that's damned frakking good.  Did the USAAF have privy to this knowledge?

There was also some experimentation with an Oboe repeater aircraft, though there was some difficulty during testing as the radome blew off the aircraft

When you say repeater -- do you mean it acted as another transmitter?


Regarding the USAAF Bombardier/Toggleer system: Was there just one lead plane in a formation of 60-270 aircraft?  Or were there a few throughout the formation?

[wuzak]

And, it has to be said, Oboe was more accurate than visual aiming devices, at least to the Ruhr. Its limitation was the altitude of the aircraft, hence the Mosquito was adoped - because it could fly 10,000+ ft more than the Lancaster.

CEP was only 22.5-45 yards?  Holy poo-poo that's damned frakking good.  Did the USAAF have privy to this knowledge?

The CEP varied a bit with range.

Yes, the USAAF had the knowledge.

This gives some idea of the use of Oboe by the 8th AF: http://www.warbirdsforum.com/topic/5412-oboe-for-the-8th-af/?p=40324

I have a number of jpegs of scanned documents regarding Oboe and the USAAF. They were from a guy on the other forum, who regularly looks through the National Archives.

The one on my screen now is titled:

Draft Minutes of a Meeting held at 1500 hours on Thursday 16th September, 1943 in the Air Council Room, Whitehall under the Chairmanship of D.C.A.S. [Deputy Chief Air Staff]

Present at the meating from the 8th AF were Major General Eaker, Colonel Hardy, Colonel Farland and Colonel Grey.

The minutes begin:

This meeting was held to examine the possibility of the release of "OBOE" Mks I and II for use by the U.S. 8th Air Force

They ended up opting for an Americanised H2S (H2X) which was a radar bombing aid, known as Bombing Through Overcast by the USAAF. H2S/H2X was very much worse than Oboe and visual aiming, but it enabled raids to be carried out further than would be allowed by Oboe and in conditions that would have precluded visual aiming.

There was also some experimentation with an Oboe repeater aircraft, though there was some difficulty during testing as the radome blew off the aircraft

When you say repeater -- do you mean it acted as another transmitter?

Exactly that - it took the signal from the ground station and retransmitted it, and vice versa with the target aircraft.

The range that Oboe could work was defined by line of sight - thus aircraft that could operate at higher altitude would give greater range for the system. The airborne repeater aircraft could maintain line of sight much further, and the signal can be strengthened before re-transmitting.

I'm not sure where exactly the aircraft was to fly in relation to the ground stations and/or the target aircraft, nor if the Repeata aircraft could handle signals from a cat and mouse station, or even several transmitting pairs.

Regarding the USAAF Bombardier/Toggleer system: Was there just one lead plane in a formation of 60-270 aircraft?  Or were there a few throughout the formation?

There were a ew, in case one or two of them were shot down on the way to target - which in 1943 was very possible.

[KJ_Lesnick]

Wuzak,

The CEP varied a bit with range.

At the outer end how good was it?

Yes, the USAAF had the knowledge.

This gives some idea of the use of Oboe by the 8th AF: http://www.warbirdsforum.com/topic/5412-oboe-for-the-8th-af/?p=40324

Why did they have so much trouble with it at first?

They ended up opting for an Americanised H2S (H2X) which was a radar bombing aid, known as Bombing Through Overcast by the USAAF. H2S/H2X was very much worse than Oboe and visual aiming, but it enabled raids to be carried out further than would be allowed by Oboe and in conditions that would have precluded visual aiming.

Why didn't they get both?  They operated out of London and could use both...

Exactly that - it took the signal from the ground station and retransmitted it, and vice versa with the target aircraft.

Extending effective range...

The range that Oboe could work was defined by line of sight - thus aircraft that could operate at higher altitude would give greater range for the system.

The USAAF couldn't fly higher than the DH98 but we could fly higher than the Lancaster...

The airborne repeater aircraft could maintain line of sight much further, and the signal can be strengthened before re-transmitting.

Didn't the movement of the repeater aircraft affect accuracy as it moved around?

There were a ew, in case one or two of them were shot down on the way to target - which in 1943 was very possible.

Were they all in the front? 

Admittedly I'm not sure how much work was done into reflex timing back in those days but there is a fraction of a second it takes for the eye to see something, process it, then your body to move and react to it.  So you wouldn't want a gigantic chain of aircraft with a master bombardier in the front you'd want say 5-10 scattered through the formations

[wuzak]

The CEP varied a bit with range.

At the outer end how good was it?

I do not know.

I guess at double the distance the CEP would be roughly double.

Yes, the USAAF had the knowledge.

This gives some idea of the use of Oboe by the 8th AF: http://www.warbirdsforum.com/topic/5412-oboe-for-the-8th-af/?p=40324

Why did they have so much trouble with it at first?

They weren't trained in it. I also believe they weren't using the whole Oboe system - I will have to look it up later, but I think they figured out a way to use the system without the aircraft electronics - and that was much less accurate.

They ended up opting for an Americanised H2S (H2X) which was a radar bombing aid, known as Bombing Through Overcast by the USAAF. H2S/H2X was very much worse than Oboe and visual aiming, but it enabled raids to be carried out further than would be allowed by Oboe and in conditions that would have precluded visual aiming.

Why didn't they get both?  They operated out of London and could use both...

The RAF didn't want the USAAF using Oboe all the time as they believed the Germans didn't know the system was being used. So there was some reluctance from the British.

Also, many of the targets the USAAF had were beyond the effective range of Oboe.
Oboe could only be used by a handful of aircraft on a mission. 8th AF typically did not mark - they just bombed. Bomber Command marked the ground on clear nights and the sky on cloudy nights.

There were a few, in case one or two of them were shot down on the way to target - which in 1943 was very possible.

Were they all in the front? 

Admittedly I'm not sure how much work was done into reflex timing back in those days but there is a fraction of a second it takes for the eye to see something, process it, then your body to move and react to it.  So you wouldn't want a gigantic chain of aircraft with a master bombardier in the front you'd want say 5-10 scattered through the formations

Not sure that they would be at the front all the time, but certainly would have to be at release time.

[KJ_Lesnick]

They weren't trained in it.

Why?

I also believe they weren't using the whole Oboe system

Why?

The RAF didn't want the USAAF using Oboe all the time as they believed the Germans didn't know the system was being used.

Didn't the Germans use radio-navigation aids as early as 1940?

Also, many of the targets the USAAF had were beyond the effective range of Oboe.

What's the max range?

Oboe could only be used by a handful of aircraft on a mission. 8th AF typically did not mark - they just bombed. Bomber Command marked the ground on clear nights and the sky on cloudy nights.

Not if you had a repeater...

Not sure that they would be at the front all the time, but certainly would have to be at release time.

That would be a problem as their accuracy would be terrible for the planes in the back as they'd release the same time as the guys in the front!

[Rheged]

You might find Alfred Price's book "Instruments  of Darkness"  (ISBN 13: 9780586048344
Publisher: HarperCollins) useful to  illuminate some aspects of electronic warfare.

R V Jones "Most Secret War " ISBN 13 9780340241691  Coronet   is also fascinating.

Wiki data on a 1977  BBC documentary series "The Secret War"    (I saw it first time around)  gives avenues for further investigation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_War_(TV_series)

[wuzak]

You might find Alfred Price's book "Instruments  of Darkness"  (ISBN 13: 9780586048344
Publisher: HarperCollins) useful to  illuminate some aspects of electronic warfare.

R V Jones "Most Secret War " ISBN 13 9780340241691  Coronet   is also fascinating.

Wiki data on a 1977  BBC documentary series "The Secret War"    (I saw it first time around)  gives avenues for further investigation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_War_(TV_series)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYJaPjGGl8Q

[wuzak]

They weren't trained in it.

Why?

Probably because it was run as a trial, and extensive training would have taken too long.

I also believe they weren't using the whole Oboe system

Why?

The RAF didn't want them using the full equipment, and they had figured out how to use the system without the Oboe equipment in the aircarft.

The RAF didn't want the USAAF using Oboe all the time as they believed the Germans didn't know the system was being used.

Didn't the Germans use radio-navigation aids as early as 1940?

Yes, but that doesn't mean that the Germans knew that the British were utilising a similar system.

In fact the German systems in use in 1940 inspired the likes of Oboe and Gee.

Also, many of the targets the USAAF had were beyond the effective range of Oboe.

What's the max range?

Not sure exactly. One reference to the Oboe Repeata meantioned extending the range to 500 miles - which is still short of Berlin.

Oboe could only be used by a handful of aircraft on a mission. 8th AF typically did not mark - they just bombed. Bomber Command marked the ground on clear nights and the sky on cloudy nights.

Not if you had a repeater...

Not sure what you mean?

Not sure that they would be at the front all the time, but certainly would have to be at release time.

That would be a problem as their accuracy would be terrible for the planes in the back as they'd release the same time as the guys in the front!

Hard for planes in the front to see when the lead bomber, back in the back, releases his bombs. And they woudl already be past the target in any case.

The guys in back can have a delay in releasing - depending on how far they are back. Not sure if that was actually done, though.

The width of the formation also had a detrimental effect on accuracy.

[KJ_Lesnick]

Wuzak

Probably because it was run as a trial, and extensive training would have taken too long.

So this wasn't something we were seriously fielding...

Yes, but that doesn't mean that the Germans knew that the British were utilising a similar system.

In fact the German systems in use in 1940 inspired the likes of Oboe and Gee.

So, the RAF didn't want the Germans to know they had the same equipment?  Was this to prevent jamming?

Hard for planes in the front to see when the lead bomber, back in the back, releases his bombs. And they woudl already be past the target in any case.

They understand the concept of reflexes?

The guys in back can have a delay in releasing - depending on how far they are back. Not sure if that was actually done, though.

Like count five seconds then hit the button?

The width of the formation also had a detrimental effect on accuracy.

That I know...

[wuzak]

Probably because it was run as a trial, and extensive training would have taken too long.

So this wasn't something we were seriously fielding...

No, but they were looking at ways of improving their accuracy.

As mentioned before, the range was limited. The documentary The Secret War: To See for 100 Miles gives the range as far as The Ruhr Valley, ~350 miles. Certainly not far enough for the 8th AF to attack oil installations and aircraft industries, many of which lay further east than Berlin.

In fact the German systems in use in 1940 inspired the likes of Oboe and Gee.

So, the RAF didn't want the Germans to know they had the same equipment?  Was this to prevent jamming?[/quote]

They didn't want the Germans to discover how they were using the same basic techniques. In part to prevent jamming, and in part because the methods they used were different and some had resistance to jamming.

Hard for planes in the front to see when the lead bomber, back in the back, releases his bombs. And they woudl already be past the target in any case.

They understand the concept of reflexes?

So, the guy in the front of the formation has good enough reflexes that he can drop his bombs before the master or lead bomber in the middle of the pack does?

There is no escaping from the fact that if the master bomber is halfway between the front and the back of the formation that half the formation has overshot the target before bombs are dropped.

The guys in back can have a delay in releasing - depending on how far they are back. Not sure if that was actually done, though.

Like count five seconds then hit the button?

I would think that a simple timing device could be used. Press the button with everybody else, but have the release on an adjustable timer.

I don't know if that is what was actually done, or if they just dropped the bombs as soon as the master bomber had.

[KJ_Lesnick]

Wuzak

No, but they were looking at ways of improving their accuracy.

That makes sense...

As mentioned before, the range was limited. The documentary The Secret War: To See for 100 Miles gives the range as far as The Ruhr Valley, ~350 miles. Certainly not far enough for the 8th AF to attack oil installations and aircraft industries, many of which lay further east than Berlin.

I know the USAAF was made aware of the Oboe, were we made aware of the repeater?

There is no escaping from the fact that if the master bomber is halfway between the front and the back of the formation that half the formation has overshot the target before bombs are dropped.

There's a communications gulf here...

• Bombardier releases bombs
  
• Toggleers see it, and hit their bomb release a fraction of a second after seeing the bombardier release his: If they are positioned right all the bombs land in the same point in space
  
• If you have a very long formation positioning a string of master bombers to ensure that each part of the formation releases their loads on the right spot
  

This should be very illustrative with red being the bombardiers, and the rest being toggleers.

X
XXXX
XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXX
X
XXXX
XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXX
X
XXXX
XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXX
X
XXXX
XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXX

I don't know if that is what was actually done, or if they just dropped the bombs as soon as the master bomber had.

That's possible

Was there knowledge of this reflex effect?