F-108 Rapier Question

[KJ_Lesnick]

I have a question about the F-108 Rapier: I know the F-108A was supposed to carry 3 x GAR-9 missiles, but I'm wondering if they ever contemplated making room for a fourth?

It sounds bizarre but they were working on a folding fin variant which would have reduced the missiles diameter, and the landing-gears were re-worked to reduce internal volume.

[Gondor]

Of course they would have contemplated making room for a fourth missile. However there are a lot of factors that go into how much and of what is carried.

• Physical space
• Size of store to be carried
• Weight of the store to be carried
• Available take off weight of aircraft (or how much it could carry off the ground
• Range, weight affects range as does aerodynamics as to carry more means a bigger aircraft
• Mission Profile, how far the aircraft has to fly, how is it flying there (high or low level flight etc), what it has to do when it gets there, what it needs to do what it is supposed to do

I am sure there are more factors but these are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. Not forgetting that all these factors will affect each other. 

Gondor

[KJ_Lesnick]

Gondor

My assumption was based on the size of the missile with fins folded.

[Gondor]

Gondor

My assumption was based on the size of the missile with fins folded.

The problems with weights etc will still apply. Each missile will need space. Each missile requires supporting equipment within the aircraft, they don't share electronics which would have been bulky transistors at that time. That is more size and weight which add up.

Gondor

[rickshaw]

Gondor

My assumption was based on the size of the missile with fins folded.

The problems with weights etc will still apply. Each missile will need space. Each missile requires supporting equipment within the aircraft, they don't share electronics which would have been bulky transistors at that time. That is more size and weight which add up.

Gondor

Got to love that comment.  "Bulky transistors".  It's all relative, I suppose, I remember when transistors were saving us from "bulky valves"! 

[Captain Canada]

The bay was so small how ( even with folding fins ) would they ever fit 4 in there ? Looks like 3 barely fit !

[KJ_Lesnick]

Gondor

The problems with weights etc will still apply. Each missile will need space.

I already attempted to address that

Each missile requires supporting equipment within the aircraft, they don't share electronics which would have been bulky transistors at that time.

I'm confused, each missile has it's equipment in the missile... far as I know the equipment to fire the missile would probably be a couple wires and some switches.


Captain Canada

The bay was able to stuff three in there, the fins however took up a lot of space; if the fins were folded...

[rickshaw]

Gondor

The problems with weights etc will still apply. Each missile will need space.

I already attempted to address that

Each missile requires supporting equipment within the aircraft, they don't share electronics which would have been bulky transistors at that time.

I'm confused, each missile has it's equipment in the missile... far as I know the equipment to fire the missile would probably be a couple wires and some switches.

Ah, if it was only that simple.  Perhaps the only missile that has come close to that level of simplicity is the AIM-9 Sidewinder series.

In reality, outside of the missile there is usually a panoply of support systems which convey to and from the missile electronic signals about where to point it's radar seeker, how the fuse is to be set and so on.  For IR missiles, there are also often bottles of coolant gas and other stuff.  Then there has to be some means to usually cool the electronics. This all takes up space within the aircraft fuselage (usually).  It has become smaller of course as electronics have become smaller but in the late 1950s, it was still transistors and even sometimes valves which did the work!

Captain Canada

The bay was able to stuff three in there, the fins however took up a lot of space; if the fins were folded...

Folding fins tend to be less stiff than fixed ones.  The folding mechanism also adds weight to the missile which in turn decreases speed and therefore range.  Folding fins also are inherently more complex and prone to failure.   When you're talking about high Mach numbers, you tend to want to eschew complexity, Kendra/Robynn.   

Why don't you build us a model and show us what it should/would have looked like?

[jcf]

Why don't you build us a model and show us what it should/would have looked like?

BWWAAAHAAAHAAA!
You're a funny guy.

[KJ_Lesnick]

Rickshaw

1. I'm not building an F-108 model anytime soon: Get over it

2. How much space could possibly be taken up to support an extra missile?

3. Folding fins might not be as stiff, but it will fit better.

[rickshaw]

Rickshaw

1. I'm not building an F-108 model anytime soon: Get over it

You could as an alternative provide a drawing, a painting, something to show that you are complying with the ethos of the forum, Kendra/Robynn.  Otherwise, I'd have to assume you're just trolling...

2. How much space could possibly be taken up to support an extra missile?

3. Folding fins might not be as stiff, but it will fit better.

And what point would there be in stuffing another missile in there if all the missiles breakup after they have been launched and while attempting to manoeuvre?

[KJ_Lesnick]

rickshaw

You could as an alternative provide a drawing, a painting, something to show that you are complying with the ethos of the forum, Kendra/Robynn.  Otherwise, I'd have to assume you're just trolling...

This topic is about aircraft/armor/weapons/ships by topic.  I didn't know there was any specification that dictated a model or drawing must be built?

I'm not trolling, I'm asking questions -- and it seems like a good question as it would give the F-108 a semi-offensive job.  You could use the aircraft in an offensive capacity (catch missiles in the boost phase)

And what point would there be in stuffing another missile in there if all the missiles breakup after they have been launched and while attempting to manoeuvre?

You think I'd want a missile that would break into pieces after launch?  No, however an extra missile could be useful if it was still strong enough.

I'm not talking about obscenely flimsy -- nobody wants that.  However 4 missiles would allow one more target to be killed, or one miss allowed with the same number of kills.

[rickshaw]

I'm not trolling, I'm asking questions

Incessantly asking questions is trolling, Kendra/Robynn.  You do not seem to contribute, you just harvest information.  You don't seem to show much effort being done to actually find this information out, yourself...

You think I'd want a missile that would break into pieces after launch?  No, however an extra missile could be useful if it was still strong enough.

If there was room.  Building a model, doing a scale drawing, producing a painting, etc., would show that you are actually thinking about the problems and are able to show us that you aren't trolling...

[KJ_Lesnick]

rickshaw

Incessantly asking questions is trolling, Kendra/Robynn.

No, trolling would be starting trouble on a forum... this isn't starting trouble, this is asking questions.

You do not seem to contribute, you just harvest information.  You don't seem to show much effort being done to actually find this information out, yourself...

Uh, this information isn't available anywhere else:  I know about the folding fin AIM-47B, but I don't know anything about the F-108A being fitted with a fourth weapon.  However it does seem logical based on the smaller fin and I do remember some statement made about a 4,000 pound payload.

If there was room.

Of course

Building a model, doing a scale drawing, producing a painting

I'm not sure if any of the scale model F-108's even *have* a model of the weapons bay, as for a drawing, I have one on my hard-drive I can post, lastly, as for a painting, I might be able to do a landscape -- certainly not a model of a fighter which requires greatly more precision.

would show that you are actually thinking about the problems and are able to show us that you aren't trolling...

As I said, I'll look around for that drawing of the weapons bay...

[rickshaw]

Rickshaw

1. Regarding the weapons bay shape: This is the best I've found so far...

Too small.  Repost it at a higher resolution, please.  Good to see you doing something other than posting questions, Kendra/Robynn.