Air to air bombs

[zenrat]

I knew anti zeppelin bombs were used in WW1 but I found this more modern example on Wikipedia while researching laser guided bombs.

"On 14 February 1991, an air-to-air kill was scored by a GBU-10 when an F-15E Strike Eagle of the 335th Tactical Fighter Squadron hit an Iraqi Air Force Mil Mi-24 Hind. 30 seconds after firing, the F-15E crew thought the bomb had missed and was about to fire an AIM-9 Sidewinder air-to-air missile when the helicopter suddenly vaporised."

It's referenced to Davies, Steve (2005). F-15E Strike Eagle Units In Combat 1990–2005. London: Osprey Publishing. p. 29-30. ISBN 1-84176-909-6

[MikeD]

The RAF had a fairly similar kill on Granby - a Tornado GR.1 was renamed MiG Eater after a JP233 bomblet (from memory) took out a MiG-29 that had just taken off.

[famvburg]

ISTR the Corsair prototype had small bomb bays in the outer wings for small bombs intended to be dropped on bomber formations.

[rickshaw]

Both the Luftwaffe and the RAF experimented with air-to-air bombs in WWII.

The RAF tried out "aerial mines" which consisted of a two part bomb, which were intended to be dropped in front of bombers.  The bomb would deploy a small parachute, which would cause the bomb to split and a long line to be deployed between the two halves.  As the bomb fell (relatively slowly), the idea was that the bomber's wing would engage the line and pull the lower part of the bomb up into contact and it would then explode. They were also intended to be used by bombers to deter attacking fighters.  Excellent in theory, impractical in reality.

The Luftwaffe tried to use bombs as "pulk-destroyers" which were intended to break up the USAAF box formations to allow fighters to pick off individual bombers more easily.  An aircraft (usually a heavy fighter) would have several bombs mounted on it with time fuses set to allow it to fall several thousand feet.  The fighter would then fly towards the bomber formation but at a higher altitude.  It would then release the bombs over the bomber formation and hopefully they would explode amongst it and down at least a couple of bombers and force the others to take evasive action.  The problem was judging the height differential accurately, which didn't always work and as the Germans lacked accurate radar proximity fuses and the USAAF started flying escort fighters, it made the job too hazardous.

[zenrat]

Thanks Rickshaw.  I got into this because I was putting laser guided bombs onto my Skyraider for anti-ship use and while I thought it was feasible to steer one onto a moving target I wasn't sure.

[Mossie]

Chris Gibson's Battle Flight mentions that the RAF looked at using Red Beard as an air to air weapon, with the lack of anything suitable to take out Soviet bombers.

Years ago I read of a tactic used by US Army Apaches for evading an attacking aircraft.  They'd turn head on to their attacker, which would reduce the amount of time a fast jet could react.  They'd then loose off a Hellfire in their direction, then head for the ground and get away as quickly as possibly.  I think the chance of hit was fairly remote, the idea being more that the attacking jet would have to take time to evade and launch countermeasures giving the Apache chance to make a getaway.

[kitnut617]

In the book 'I Flew for the Fuhrer' by Heinz Knoke, he explains that his squadron experimented with dropping 'timed' bombs onto bomber formations.  They flew 109's for the operation and dropped 500 kg bombs.  The first operation was a complete surprise to the bombers, with quite a few being taken out but also with bombers colliding with each other as they tried to get out of the way.   After that, as soon as the fighters were spotted forming up above the bombers, the bombers would start an organized 'weave' which practically nullified the bomb attack.

Knoke's squadron then went onto the wing mounted mortars ----

[dogsbody]

Didn't the Japanese use phosphorus bombs against US bomber formations?



Chris

[Captain Canada]

Some interesting stories coming out of this one guys....thanks !

[Ed S]

Perhaps the most interesting air to air "bomb" kill came during Vietnam when an F-105 pilot jettisoned his centerline bomb rack (MER) and the attacking MiG 17 flew into the falling rack and was destroyed.

It was also a commonly discussed (if not really used) low level defensive tactic to drop an armed bomb (preferably high drag) at low altitude in hope that it would damage or discourage an attacking fighter when it exploded in his face.

Ed

[rickshaw]

Perhaps the most interesting air to air "bomb" kill came during Vietnam when an F-105 pilot jettisoned his centerline bomb rack (MER) and the attacking MiG 17 flew into the falling rack and was destroyed.

Interesting.  Do you have a reference for that, Ed?

It was also a commonly discussed (if not really used) low level defensive tactic to drop an armed bomb (preferably high drag) at low altitude in hope that it would damage or discourage an attacking fighter when it exploded in his face.

Ed

Buccaneer crews apparently referred to this as "dropping one's knickers".   As to it's effectiveness, I wonder but I suppose if you did it with a Red Beard, it would cause definite problems for everybody concerned (including the Buccaneer crew).

[Rheged]

It was also a commonly discussed (if not really used) low level defensive tactic to drop an armed bomb (preferably high drag) at low altitude in hope that it would damage or discourage an attacking fighter when it exploded in his face.

Ed

Buccaneer crews apparently referred to this as "dropping one's knickers".   As to it's effectiveness, I wonder but I suppose if you did it with a Red Beard, it would cause definite problems for everybody concerned (including the Buccaneer crew).

I have overheard (in a pub in Lossiemouth) that a drone was successfully brought down using this technique in tests off Aberporth.  I assume a Jindivik or similar.

There is also the apocryphal story of a Bucc crew  nearly downing an aggressor aircraft on a Red Flag using only newsprint.
It is said that  the Bucc airbrake was not loaded  with   the usual chaff/window/foil but with copies of the Banff and Buchan edition of the Aberdeen Press and Journal. Having an aggressor aircraft approaching their tail, the Bucc  crew  briefly opened the tail airbrake and the pursuer was engulfed in  sheets of paper carrying the wet fish prices at Portsoy and the results of the Elgin Rose Society Summer Show!

Almost certainly mythical, but believeable given the way most Bucc crew behaved.

[rickshaw]

The reason why I wonder about it's effectiveness is that it assumes that the attacking aircraft is only using guns and is approaching from directly astern and has closed to quite a close range.   In otherwords, normally an unlikely situation.  I suspect the Red Flag aggressor was rather naive to get caught that way, if that story was true.

[Ed S]

Perhaps the most interesting air to air "bomb" kill came during Vietnam when an F-105 pilot jettisoned his centerline bomb rack (MER) and the attacking MiG 17 flew into the falling rack and was destroyed.

Interesting.  Do you have a reference for that, Ed?

I'm pretty sure I have it in my library. But it's not available right now due to some major remodeling in the house.

Ed

[tahsin]

... it assumes that the attacking aircraft is only using guns and is approaching from directly astern and has closed to quite a close range.   In otherwords, normally an unlikely situation. 

In the 70s when flying low was rather prefereable to getting targeted by the SA-2 and the like and the AAMs on the fighters would be handicapped by the ground clutter leaving  guns to be nominally the best bet. I have read it somewhere that it was almost a NATO standart for F-104s to carry a Napalm store in the fuselage centre. Set aside for "bombing the interceptor." Might not have downed it but the MiG pilot would have to respond -by giving up the chase for a moment and the F-104 was blisteringly fast. The MiG would be possibly not capable of getting into the Starfighter's Six again.