Aircraft that Britain Shouldn't have had

[rickshaw]

as a confirmed Oncaphile

"Oncaphile"?

[XV107]

Rickshaw - Jaguar (the beast) is of the genus Panthera, and is Panthera Onca, thus a lover of Jaguars is...

PR19 - at the tome of SDSR, because of what I was doing at the time, I was party to some basic information in which the pros and cons of  of RJ or 'Nimrod R5' were aired. RJ came out on top quite significantly in the comparison, not least in terms of operating costs. Apologies for the lack of clarity.

[PR19_Kit]

OK, thanks for the clarification.

I'm surprised that an almost new build aircraft with state of the art engines should cost so much more to operate than a relatively ancient airframe with not quite so state of the art engines. As I understand it the equipment fit would have been similar so that shouldn't be a factor.

[DarrenP]

Xv107

to get Tornado to the point it is now has taken billions of pounds poured down the drain trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear. When it entered service the funding for refurbishment of other aircraft was turned of to release funds to try and make tornado work. It took the 1st Gulf war and Bosnia to force the MoD's hand into giving Jaguar an update because they realised they needed the capability the jaguar had to provide close air support. Buccaneer with no update still out performed tornado it was unfortunate time caught up with them. If the same principle had been applied I would contend Typhoon would be in a much better place as a close air support platform.
As to nimrod the MRA 4 project should never have started the initial concept of recycling the airframes was always going to lead to costs escalating I wonder if a new airframe would have actually been cheaper and worked.

[McColm]

Without going into too much detail, the Nimrod used the best technology taken from around the world and installed it on one aircraft. Sometimes the computers would talk to each other and perform 100% and the odd day they wouldn't. Once the glitches were sorted out the Nimrod Mk 2's were the best in the world for maritime patrol, ASW and SAR. Can't speak for the R1.
Yes it wasn't wide enough, so is the P-3 Orion. But the transit speed was impressive.
Should have kept a reduced flight until the Mk4 entered service.
Having flown on the CP-140 and P-3C the Canadian version for me was the better aircraft, the Atlantic was wider , two engines and dipping radar. Each aircraft having advantages and disadvantages over the others. Now if they could have combined all three into one then the Mk4 might have entered service or the RAF could have leased a few P-3 Orions.

[DarrenP]

would it have been cheaper to build a new airframe based on what you say and add in off the shelf or recycled systems

[XV107]

Xv107

to get Tornado to the point it is now has taken billions of pounds poured down the drain trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear. When it entered service the funding for refurbishment of other aircraft was turned of to release funds to try and make tornado work. It took the 1st Gulf war and Bosnia to force the MoD's hand into giving Jaguar an update because they realised they needed the capability the jaguar had to provide close air support. Buccaneer with no update still out performed tornado it was unfortunate time caught up with them. If the same principle had been applied I would contend Typhoon would be in a much better place as a close air support platform.
As to nimrod the MRA 4 project should never have started the initial concept of recycling the airframes was always going to lead to costs escalating I wonder if a new airframe would have actually been cheaper and worked.

Please explain how/why the Tornado (presumably you're referring to the GR1/GR4) was/is a "sow's ear" ?

Jaguar was upgraded with TIALD and subsequent modifications because of the need for additional designation capability; it was not a 'failing' with Tornado but with Harrier that saw the upgrade commence, and the aircraft was tasked with battlefield interdiction and CAS (and damned good at both) before the  GR1B and GR3 upgrades kicked in.

The Bucc did indeed outperform the Tornado in a number of important respects (range, number of Sea Eagles carried, for instance) - but not across the board.

I appreciate that you are unshakable in your view that the RAF should not have bought the Tornado because it has always, in your eyes, been rubbish. But I respectfully disagree, not least because the GR1 and GR4, when their operations are considered properly have been a critical element in the RAF's work for a quarter of a century.

The MRA4 new wings/old fuselage idea was utterly mad and various warnings to this effect were given. And ignored. The most sensible (if wildly improbable) course of action, given the involvement of Boeing in the integration of mission systems, etc, would've been to have persuaded Boeing to come in on a joint venture to provide new-build MRA4 airframes as both Nimrod MR2 and USN P-3 replacements. McColm is spot on about the retention of MR2s, but politics after the loss of XV230 got in the way of that, IMO.

[PR19_Kit]

The MRA4 new wings/old fuselage idea was utterly mad and various warnings to this effect were given. And ignored. The most sensible (if wildly improbable) course of action, given the involvement of Boeing in the integration of mission systems, etc, would've been to have persuaded Boeing to come in on a joint venture to provide new-build MRA4 airframes as both Nimrod MR2 and USN P-3 replacements. McColm is spot on about the retention of MR2s, but politics after the loss of XV230 got in the way of that, IMO.

Oh yes, I can just see Boeing agreeing to that! NOT!

The US Standard 'Not Invented Here' rule would have been invoked, especially when some of the design dated back to the period when the Nimrod's predecessor beat them to the pinch in inaugurating trans-Atlantic jet services.

Changing tack slightly, what would the RAF have used for the task if we hadn't have designed, built and flown the Tornado?

[scooter]

Changing tack slightly, what would the RAF have used for the task if we hadn't have designed, built and flown the Tornado?

Another refurbishment of Canberra, Kit?

[Thorvic]

The MRA4 new wings/old fuselage idea was utterly mad and various warnings to this effect were given. And ignored. The most sensible (if wildly improbable) course of action, given the involvement of Boeing in the integration of mission systems, etc, would've been to have persuaded Boeing to come in on a joint venture to provide new-build MRA4 airframes as both Nimrod MR2 and USN P-3 replacements. McColm is spot on about the retention of MR2s, but politics after the loss of XV230 got in the way of that, IMO.

Oh yes, I can just see Boeing agreeing to that! NOT!

The US Standard 'Not Invented Here' rule would have been invoked, especially when some of the design dated back to the period when the Nimrod's predecessor beat them to the pinch in inaugurating trans-Atlantic jet services.

Changing tack slightly, what would the RAF have used for the task if we hadn't have designed, built and flown the Tornado?

Actually Kit at that point in time BAE systems was trying to dispose of its Airbus holdings and actively trying to merge with Boeing. I wouldn't be surprised if Poseidon was actually originally drawn up for and Anglo/US MPA programme

[PR19_Kit]

I can't think of anything worse than a BAe merged with Boeing! Thank goodness it didn't happen.

[kitnut617]

Changing tack slightly, what would the RAF have used for the task if we hadn't have designed, built and flown the Tornado?

A two-seater F-15 was banded with Brit equipment before Tornado even got going.  It was proposed that a production line be set up in Europe with the hope other countries would jump on board. It had the benefit of having the F-15B already flying in service so all that would have needed testing was the equipment installed. The shortage of fuel in the F-15K variant had already been addressed with the conformal tanks being tested on a F-15B.

I've got a build going where I've switched the nose cone to a Tornado F.3 one, also switched the engines too.

[scooter]

A two-seater F-15 was banded with Brit equipment before Tornado even got going.  It was proposed that a production line be set up in Europe with the hope other countries would jump on board. It had the benefit of having the F-15B already flying in service so all that would have needed testing was the equipment installed. The shortage of fuel in the F-15K variant had already been addressed with the conformal tanks being tested on a F-15B.

I've got a build going where I've switched the nose cone to a Tornado F.3 one, also switched the engines too.

So would it have been multi-role like Phantom and later Strike Eagle, or a single role platform?

[sandiego89]

I can't think of anything worse than a BAe merged with Boeing!

Perhaps BAe/Lockheed could be even worse

BAe seems to take perfectly functional stuff and over complicate it (yes often due to poor customer requirments).  Lockheed seems to reel the customer in with shiny promises and then just kill them with the support and upgrade work as the customer is now over the barrel: ohhh you can't touch that, only we can do that cause of proprietery stuff/we own the source code....Ohh you want full functionality?- that will only cost another $xxxxx.    

[kitnut617]

A two-seater F-15 was banded with Brit equipment before Tornado even got going.  It was proposed that a production line be set up in Europe with the hope other countries would jump on board. It had the benefit of having the F-15B already flying in service so all that would have needed testing was the equipment installed. The shortage of fuel in the F-15K variant had already been addressed with the conformal tanks being tested on a F-15B.

I've got a build going where I've switched the nose cone to a Tornado F.3 one, also switched the engines too.

So would it have been multi-role like Phantom and later Strike Eagle, or a single role platform?

Just like the Tornado F.3  is/was, would have had Skyflash (already in use on F.4's) and the AMRRAM, I'm just taking it further by putting a big long range missile on it, based on a Martel/Sea Eagle airframe.  Evan has said it probably would have got some sort of RR engine or an engine from a European consortium so even though I've switched the engines to F110 ones, the turkey feathers are similar to an Atar engines