F-104 Starfighter Ideas

[KJ_Lesnick]

Weaver

That doesn't show up in the results. The F-105, despite "obviously" not being a dogfighter, actually did surprisingly well in Vietnam: more MiGs were shot down by F-105s than F-105s were shot down by MiGs.

Barely: 27.5-28.5 kills, 23 losses.  The F-8, in comparison managed 19 kills for 3 losses.

That's more than the F-104 can claim.

If I recall, the F-104's were only used early in the war: From what it would seem, the F-104's were said to have a deterring effect on the Vietnamese.  For some reason the Commies were scared of them.


zenrat

Is this a quote or do you, like, talk like this man?

It's not a quote far as I know.  I have used the expression "weird wild stuff", "a wild scene", "pretty hairy" at times.  

As for what I'm talking about: I actually got out my WarbirdTech Series, Volume 38: Lockheed F-104 Starfighter, by Jim Upton.  If you have this book, I suggest you open up to page 23: It includes two diagrams depicting a typical landing pattern and a typical flame-out landing pattern.

The power-on landing looks pretty normal except maybe a little on the fast side -- typical race-track approach; the power-off looks like a spiral staircase taking you over the middle of the runway (maybe 1/3 down), then continuously turning all the way to final while holding 260 knots.  You start at around 12,500 to 15,000 feet, 260 knots, RAT out and flaps to takeoff, the low-key part of the approach has you around 6,000 to 8,000 feet.  Final is around 1,000 feet, flare begins at 300-500 feet, like with the space-shuttle you put the gear down at the last minute.

You cross the threshold at around 210-240, touchdown at 160 which is actually normal: Looks like it would actually be fun to do with FS9, FSX, X-Plane or DCS world (if such a model exists for it).


rickshaw

Except F-104s didn't engage in any air-to-air combats over Vietnam so that is a little disingenous.

I though they did early on.  

Might be better to look at how well the F-104 went over the Formosa Straits or the Indian sub-continent.   Didn't do very well in either place IIRC.

Do you have any statistical data on this?


sandiego89

IIRC more than one properly flown f-104 surprised adversaries in exercises.

Yeah... as I said when it was flown right it was a holy-terror.  They could even out-turn F-5E's

[PR19_Kit]

The power-on landing looks pretty normal except maybe a little on the fast side -- typical race-track approach; the power-off looks like a spiral staircase taking you over the middle of the runway (maybe 1/3 down), then continuously turning all the way to final while holding 260 knots.  You start at around 12,500 to 15,000 feet, 260 knots, RAT out and flaps to takeoff, the low-key part of the approach has you around 6,000 to 8,000 feet.  Final is around 1,000 feet, flare begins at 300-500 feet, like with the space-shuttle you put the gear down at the last minute.

You cross the threshold at around 210-240, touchdown at 160 which is actually normal: Looks like it would actually be fun to do with FS9, FSX, X-Plane or DCS world (if such a model exists for it).

With wings that small it would be '... a little on the fast side...'!

There are a number of F-104 models available in FS9 but the aerodynamics modelling in FS9 isn't that sophisticated so making comparisons with real world flying won't be that accurate.

[rickshaw]

rickshaw

Except F-104s didn't engage in any air-to-air combats over Vietnam so that is a little disingenous.

I though they did early on.

Didn't go north of the DMZ. 

Might be better to look at how well the F-104 went over the Formosa Straits or the Indian sub-continent.   Didn't do very well in either place IIRC.

Do you have any statistical data on this?
[/quote]

Nope.  Never seen firm figures on the Formosa Straits engagements, neither side likes to admit how many they actually lost nor the circumstances.  The Indian/Pakistani MiG-21/F-104 encounters were fairly well documented though and neither side managed very much because of fuel limitations (ie they'd meet, do a few twists or turns, one would go bingo and run away).

[zenrat]

Thanks for the reply Hannah. "A wild scene" struck me as a rather dated phrase (like something Shaggy would say to Scooby).  Maybe you're older than I think.

G for Germany.

[Weaver]

Non-Lockheed test-pilots who flew the Starfighter criticised it roundly, and combat experience, both mock and real, showed it to be a poor dogfighter.

It wasn't the best, but it was better than the F-105 (and F-4 as it had a gun)

That doesn't show up in the results. The F-105, despite "obviously" not being a dogfighter, actually did surprisingly well in Vietnam: more MiGs were shot down by F-105s than F-105s were shot down by MiGs. That's more than the F-104 can claim.

Except F-104s didn't engage in any air-to-air combats over Vietnam so that is a little disingenous.   Might be better to look at how well the F-104 went over the Formosa Straits or the Indian sub-continent.   Didn't do very well in either place IIRC.

My apologies: I had it in my head that one was shot down by a MiG-19 giving a kill:loss ratio of 0:1. However now I've looked it up, I realise that that engagement was with a Chinese F-6 when an F-104 inadvertently strayed over the border.

[tahsin]

If I recall, the F-104's were only used early in the war: From what it would seem, the F-104's were said to have a deterring effect on the Vietnamese.  For some reason the Commies were scared of them.

Except F-104s didn't engage in any air-to-air combats over Vietnam so that is a little disingenous.

I though they did early on.  

Commies were not scared of the 104s, that's just company talk becoming "fact" over the years.

[KJ_Lesnick]

PR19_Kit

With wings that small it would be '... a little on the fast side...'!

Landing speed's 155-160 (kts) at 16,100 pounds.

There are a number of F-104 models available in FS9 but the aerodynamics modelling in FS9 isn't that sophisticated so making comparisons with real world flying won't be that accurate.

I suppose it depends on the quality of the data put into the model.


rickshaw

Didn't go north of the DMZ.

I didn't know that...

Nope.  Never seen firm figures on the Formosa Straits engagements, neither side likes to admit how many they actually lost nor the circumstances.

I did some looking, admittedly I don't think Wikipedia counts but it would appear 2 MiG-19's got shot down, one F-104 either was shot down or went down for another reasons.

The Indian/Pakistani MiG-21/F-104 encounters were fairly well documented

It would appear 1-2 kills were scored by F-104's, and 1 F-104 got shot down


zenrat

Thanks for the reply Hannah. "A wild scene" struck me as a rather dated phrase (like something Shaggy would say to Scooby).  Maybe you're older than I think.

I was born in 1971...

[PR19_Kit]

PR19_Kit

With wings that small it would be '... a little on the fast side...'!

Landing speed's 155-160 (kts) at 16,100 pounds.

There are a number of F-104 models available in FS9 but the aerodynamics modelling in FS9 isn't that sophisticated so making comparisons with real world flying won't be that accurate.

I suppose it depends on the quality of the data put into the model.

That is 'a little on the fast side....'

It's not only the data input into the FS model that affects its real world fidelity. It also depends on the FS's internal modelling of  aerodynamic 'laws' that affects it, and M$'s assumptions and modelling has been shown to be woefully inadequate in some areas.

[KJ_Lesnick]

There was an F-104C developed for record setting flights and it had a modified inlet cone to allow it to gain more speed so as to give it the ability to zoom higher for an altitude setting flight in 1959

The NF-104A had the same inlet modification


Here is a normal F-104 for comparison


Does anybody know what effects this would have on subsonic flight (Mach 0.0 to 0.9)?

[PR19_Kit]

What's different about the inlets? They look the same to me, once I'd figured out the second pic.....

[Gondor]

What's different about the inlets? They look the same to me, once I'd figured out the second pic.....

I think the tip on the shock cone is slightly different Kit, not 1005 sure though as the picture is taken from a different angle than the one in the half link.

Gondor

[zenrat]

Am I imagining things or have some posts been deleted from this thread?

[KJ_Lesnick]

No you're not... PR19_Kit's missing a post

[maxmwill]

"Give me Operations"
Some words about how the Luftwaffe pilots felt about certain aircraft they flew and still fly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rL5vX4_rGes   

You might recognize a few.

[Jesse220]

Why not do a naval F-104 version?