Elhiem Miniatures

[PR19_Kit]

Interesting. I'd never heard of an EM-2 until I read your post Brian, and it caused me to dig further into it.

I'm surprised the British Army didn't adopt it back then, but if the US Army decided it wasn't good enough...................

[Weaver]

Ian at Forgotten Weapons did a whole series on the EM-2 and the subsequent 'development' of British bullpups. I put 'development' in quotes because, almost uniquely, the designs got worse in every subsequent iteration...

This are his videos on the EM-2:
History/technicalities: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcYj2SpUHvE
Shooting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-grTPqgETk

Playlist of videos on the SA-80 'development': https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9e3UCcU00TTKZGYyt7empeySNqh-xJWb

Playlist of videos on the wider topic of the 1950s calibre 'war' inside NATO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhUfBfr2OBA&list=PL9e3UCcU00TQxGe9az3yZLQZn5HAJ0Hwg

Ian's second book under his Headstamp Publishing company is a history of British Bullpups by Johnathan Ferguson, Keeper of Firearms & Artillery at the Royal Armouries in the UK: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTZ0tR8Au2I

This is the Kickstarter for the book: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/headstamp/thorneycroft-to-sa80-british-bullpup-firearms-19012020?ref=chvc1k

[rickshaw]

The Americans weren't so much against the rifle as against the round it fired. They invented a whole load of reasons against it, including a "safe zone" where the round supposedly went over the head of it's target because of it's trajectory.  In reality, it wasn't meant to fire at greater than 600 metres where it had a high trajectory.   The real reason why they wanted 7.62x51mm 'cause they had invested so much in the machinery that made it.

Churchill liked the FN-FAL more than the than the EM2.  The FN-FAL was easier and cheaper to manufacture.  So the FN-FAL won the deal.  Interestingly the X8 version, which lacked a flash hider and had a reciprocate cocking handle often appeared in Dr.Who in the hands of UNIT soldiers.

[Weaver]

Just realised that we've got two thread for Elhiem, mostly because I spelled it wrongly when I started the original thread... 

The other one's here: https://www.whatifmodellers.com/index.php?topic=39364.msg651155#msg651155


Also, all Elhiem's figures, including the EM-2 ones, are 20mm (1/72nd scale), not 25mm.

[PR19_Kit]

The real reason why they wanted 7.62x51mm 'cause they had invested so much in the machinery that made it.

No, really? 

[NARSES2]

Just realised that we've got two thread for Elhiem, mostly because I spelled it wrongly when I started the original thread... 

Also, all Elhiem's figures, including the EM-2 ones, are 20mm (1/72nd scale), not 25mm.

Merged

[Weaver]

The real reason why they wanted 7.62x51mm 'cause they had invested so much in the machinery that made it.

No, really? 

Weeeell, that was the excuse that seemed most compelling and convinced the most people. However that issue might not have been a deal-breaker were it not for the attitude of one Colonel Studler, head of the US Small Arms Bureau of Ordnance, who had set his face dead against any 'foreign' solution.

From here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.280_British#Selection_of_7.62_NATO

Britain, Canada and the United States, founding members of NATO, had all signed an agreement that member states would develop and deploy common small arms and cartridges, developed through competitive trials in co-operation together. Britain and Canada had been open about their developments, and the Americans claimed they were not developing a round of their own and were known to be trialing the British designs.

In fact, Colonel Rene Studler, head of the US Small Arms Bureau of Ordnance had been diametrically opposed to a bullpup design and the .280 cartridge, and had started two secret projects on a .30 calibre cartridge. These were the T25 rifle at Springfield Armory under the direction of Earle Harvey, firing the T65 cartridge being developed at Frankford Arsenal. Between 1947 and 1952 the British and Canadians made clear to the United States they were aware of their secret work, stating that it was against the open, collaborative nature of the agreement, making their disapproval clear.

Matters took a turn for the worse when Rene Studler went on record, stating that, any non-American design was "a waste of time" and refused point blank to accept any "foreign" design.[4] It was learned that Studler had gone so far as to bury reports that suggested the .280 was superior in US testing. During firing tests in 1950 at the Aberdeen Proving Ground the Maximum Average Pressure (MAP) for .280 British ball ammunition was measured at 43,600 psi (300.6 MPa). The highest measured maximum pressure was 47,300 psi (326.1 MPa).[5]

A change of government meant that the 7 mm, EM-2 and Taden gun projects were abandoned soon afterwards by Winston Churchill, who returned as the prime minister and desired commonality between the NATO countries. Small amounts of .280 British ammunition were later produced during the 1960s for various small arms trials. At the same time, the British and Canadians, who were very impressed with the cartridge originally planned to have their FN FAL rifles chambered in .280. However, eventually, they agreed to a quid pro quo where the British would use the US-derived .30 (by now the 7.62) while the Americans accepted the FN FAL. This too proved not to be the case, and the US eventually chose their M14 rifle over the FAL.

And then, just over ten years after forcing everybody in NATO to use the sub-optimal 7.62x51mm round, the Americans fell in love with the M-16 and went over to 5.56x48mm....


Basically, the EM-2 is the TSR-2 of the small-arms world....

[Weaver]

Just realised that we've got two thread for Elhiem, mostly because I spelled it wrongly when I started the original thread... 

Also, all Elhiem's figures, including the EM-2 ones, are 20mm (1/72nd scale), not 25mm.

Merged

Cheers Chris. I've just changed the spelling in the original post title so that anyone searching for the thread will find it next time.

[zenrat]

...Basically, the EM-2 is the TSR-2 of the small-arms world....

Dog bless the united states.  Sometimes you make it really hard for us to love you.

[elmayerle]

...Basically, the EM-2 is the TSR-2 of the small-arms world....

Dog bless the united states.  Sometimes you make it really hard for us to love you.

Heck (stronger terms may be added to season to taste), all too often our political (and related academic and media) class makes it very difficult to care positively about them.