Blackburn (BAE) Buccaneer

[Shasper]

Integral tankage would extend range, as well as the use of composits in various areas.

a nice FBW type system would be good too.

Shas B)

[AeroplaneDriver]

My thoughts??

Well, since I won a (or hopefully 2!) Airfix 1/48 Bricks on ebay yesterday, I think this is a well-timed thread!

Wasn't it the RAF Bucc crews who used to say the only thing that could replace the Buccaneer was a new Buccaneer?

[elmayerle]

The integral tanks make sense but I'm not so sure about a FBW system, this is being done "on the cheap" (par for the course) and equipment changes are pretty much constrained to what's out there and in production.  If a Tornado's control system and actuators can be adapted, then it might happen but there'll be comparatively little new development here.  The Medway might build on some private testbeds built by RR and the effort in going from the Spey to the Tay.

[RLBH]

The integral tanks make sense but I'm not so sure about a FBW system, this is being done "on the cheap" (par for the course) and equipment changes are pretty much constrained to what's out there and in production.  If a Tornado's control system and actuators can be adapted, then it might happen but there'll be comparatively little new development here.

So no FBW, then. The Tornado was done just before FBW became widespread, so is hauled about the sky by the pilot directly.

As for Buccaneers:

     

Probably the only aircraft that could fly into a brick wall, and out the other side...

 

[Shasper]

I was actualy thinking about something along the lines of the F-14's DFC system, instead of a full-up FBW.

Shas B)

[elmayerle]

I was actualy thinking about something along the lines of the F-14's DFC system, instead of a full-up FBW.

Okay, I could see that; perhaps based on either the DFC of either the F-14 or F-15.  Definitely, using existing, off-the-shelf, technology and components would be the way to go for a minimum cost/risk update.

[Bryan H.]

You could also incorporate some new ECM gear into the upgrade; something like the UK version of the NZ A-4 "Kahu" or Argentine A-4AR ECM gear.  Maybe, something more sophisticated.  

Also, those "slipper" tanks on the wings look like they'd be great for modification.  Perhaps, one of them could be modified with cameras for recon (leaving the bomb bay & wing pylons available) so that your Bucc could fly armed recon missions.

Of course, if the UK restarted Buccaneer production with an eye to keeping improvements simple, I'd probably be a good export prospect.  The KISS principle still has it's adherents & fans, especially outside of the US!  Lets see...  Thailand, the Philippines, Australia, Brazil, Chile, Mexico, South Africa (a post-apartheid re-order), Norway, Germany, Greece, Canada...

Bryan

[Daryl J.]

Did the Buccaneer have the ability to carry laser-guided munitions?  Given it's earth's surface skimming ability, would LGB capacity been an improvement anyway?

BTW, our club's president is missing part of his fingertips due to someone in the cockpit of a Buccaneer closing the gear at the wrong time during maintenance.  He *loves* the Bucc!  What an amazing machine.


Daryl J.

[Maverick]

IIRC, during Gulf One Buccs Pave Spiked for Tornado b4 TIALD came online, there was some talk of them carrying LGBs but i don't know if it came to fruition.

Either way, go the Brick!!!

Maverick..

[Geoff_B]

Did the Buccaneer have the ability to carry laser-guided munitions?  Given it's earth's surface skimming ability, would LGB capacity been an improvement anyway?

BTW, our club's president is missing part of his fingertips due to someone in the cockpit of a Buccaneer closing the gear at the wrong time during maintenance.  He *loves* the Bucc!  What an amazing machine.


Daryl J.

Yeap they were the specialists in LGB ops, one squadron carried the Sea Eagles to damage the ships and the other squadron had the LGB's to lob down the funnel and break the ships keel.

By the Gulf War they were selected as designators for the Tornado's as they were more experienced in the user off tangent targeting and the Tornados had not yet used their new Tiald pods, with them only having the fixed fwd laser designator. Later in the War they allowed to take bombs with them and used them very effectively

[Tornado]

There was the HS P.1197 as mentioned in BSP. Re-engined with RB.168s and new avionics. I believe thinner wings would be fitted and they would be new build. They would be a battlefield support aircraft working in conjuction with a smaller single-engined aircraft. LGB would have been added.

There was a quote of an American saying that if the RAF used the Bucc in the 1970s it would earn the pity of its friends as the USAF discarded like the Bucc a decade ago. And yet the TSR saga proved low and subsonic was good enough, there was too much empahsis on supersonic zoom in the 1960s.

[Archibald]

Did the Buccaneer have the ability to carry laser-guided munitions?  Given it's earth's surface skimming ability, would LGB capacity been an improvement anyway?

BTW, our club's president is missing part of his fingertips due to someone in the cockpit of a Buccaneer closing the gear at the wrong time during maintenance.  He *loves* the Bucc!  What an amazing machine.


Daryl J.

Yeap they were the specialists in LGB ops, one squadron carried the Sea Eagles to damage the ships and the other squadron had the LGB's to lob down the funnel and break the ships keel.

By the Gulf War they were selected as designators for the Tornado's as they were more experienced in the user off tangent targeting and the Tornados had not yet used their new Tiald pods, with them only having the fixed fwd laser designator. Later in the War they allowed to take bombs with them and used them very effectively

Article on the subject in "Le Fana de l'aviation" May-August 1998.

[XV107]

Initially, 237 OCU's aircraft would have been used to provide designation to RAFG's Tornado squadrons had the balloon gone up prior to the GR1 getting a pod of its own (the Tornado had no self-designation capability without a pod; that to which Thorvic refers to is a laser ranger and marked-target seeker).

To begin with,  Buccs in Op Granby carried an underwing load of one tank, one AIM-9L, an ECM pod and a Pave Spike. The Sidewinder was left off after a while and replaced by an LGB, and for some sorties, the slipper tank was removed and a second LGB carried - this gave a loadout of  

starboard outer - ALQ-119
starboard inner - Slipper tank or CPU-123 (not the correct designation, but shorthand familiar to many to distinguish between UK and US Paveway II)
port inner - Pave Spike
port outer - AIM-9L or CPU 123

The Buccs flew 216 sorties and released 48 LGBs. The Tornado force did some self-designation with the two TIALD pods that were available at that point (taken from the testing programme), but the Bucc did the overwhelming majority of designator sorties.

IIRC, at least one Iraqi aircraft fell victim to a Buccaneer (an An-12), although this was firmly on the ground and there wasn't any debate on whether or not it was an air-air kill (whereas there was debate over whether the MiG-29 hit by a JP233 had rotated and was thus the RAF's first aerial victory since 1948 [ignoring the possible 'hushed-up' kills elsewhere]).

As for an upgrade to the S2 airframe, this might well have involved zero-lifing key components and some rebuilding drawing upon the knowledge gained after the Red Flag crash and the grounding of the fleet in the early 80s. A new radar, a less steam-driven approach to the cockpit instrumentation and some form of RWR/ECM capability would have been likely. I'm not sure that putting Medways into the aircraft would have been pursued, though.

As for taskings: the new Buccs would probably have continued in the maritime attack role, with secondary strike capability (as per the Tornado GR1B). Once Sea Eagle was retired, you might well see the new Buccs participating in Operation Desert Fox (as 12 Sqn did with its GR1s) using the GBU-24, and maybe over Kosovo - perhaps with ALARM? Follow that with the Lessons of Kosovo report, and you might see the upgraded Buccs receiving Mavericks or even JDAM as an interim measure before the Enhanced Paveway entered service...

[ChuckAnderson]

Hi Everyone!

As the subject under discussion concerns the Blackburn Buccaneer, I thought that you might also find it interesting to see a three-view line drawing of one of the aircraft that competed with the Buccaneer, before the Buccaneer was ultimately chosen over all the other types.

This one competing aircraft was the Hawker P.1108, a two-seat naval strike aircraft that was to have been propelled by four (4) small Rolls-Royce turbojets, (which the source didn't identify.)

I don't have any tech data handy for this aircraft, but perhaps someone else can dig up this info.

My source is:
Hawker Aircraft Since 1920
p. 645
Author: Francis K. Mason
Original Publishers: Putnam Aeronautical Books (1991, Great Britain)
Current Publishers: Naval Institute Press (1991, Annapolis, MD, USA)
Copyright: Francis K. Mason 1961, 1971 and 1991


Chuck

[nev]

Potential export orders?

The Marineflieger evaluated it, along with the F-4, and I believe it was their first choice, but they had the F-104 forced on them.

Thanks to Leigh, we know the USMC used them.



Anyone other potentials?  Israel?  India?