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Military autogiros, or autogyros.

Started by maxmwill, September 20, 2014, 11:25:18 AM

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maxmwill

September 20, 2014, 11:25:18 AM
About the only countries to give serious consideration to military autogyros were Great Britain and Japan, Great Britain using the Avro Rota for radar calibration, the Japanese using them for other multiple purposes.

Yes, there was the Kamov A7, and that was supposed to be armed, but was never adopted(to my knowledge).

While the US did have the Pitcairn PCA2, and did use it a bit, giving it the designation of OP-1 and OP-2(the difference being that the -2 model had the wings taken off), what if the US had decided to encourage Pitcairn to further develop the idea, much like Kayaba did with the license built Kellet design?

The reason I'm positing this is I was recently given a 1/48 scale model of a PCA-2, and wasn't satisfied with the two options in the kit, and have been wondering if this could possibly have been further developed and used offensively.

And not even necessarily armed, but used much like the Lysander was used to transport spies and other individuals under cover of darkness, complete with a flame damping exhaust system which also severely muffled engine noise.

loupgarou

#1
September 20, 2014, 12:05:17 PM
Quote from: maxmwill on September 20, 2014, 11:25:18 AM
About the only countries to give serious consideration to military autogyros were Great Britain and Japan, Great Britain using the Avro Rota for radar calibration, the Japanese using them for other multiple purposes.

Yes, there was the Kamov A7, and that was supposed to be armed, but was never adopted(to my knowledge).

While the US did have the Pitcairn PCA2, and did use it a bit, giving it the designation of OP-1 and OP-2(the difference being that the -2 model had the wings taken off), what if the US had decided to encourage Pitcairn to further develop the idea, much like Kayaba did with the license built Kellet design?

The reason I'm positing this is I was recently given a 1/48 scale model of a PCA-2, and wasn't satisfied with the two options in the kit, and have been wondering if this could possibly have been further developed and used offensively.

And not even necessarily armed, but used much like the Lysander was used to transport spies and other individuals under cover of darkness, complete with a flame damping exhaust system which also severely muffled engine noise.

Interesting idea, but a bigger autogyro would be necessary. The Pitcairn was too small and I don't think would have the necessary range.
I have read "We landed by moonlight" by Hugh Verity (very interesting, BTW) and other books about Lysander and other planes clandestine ops in WW2.
The Lysander was STRONG, able to land (and get away) in very rough ground, had sufficient range to reach central France from UK and loiter trying to find the LZ, then go back without refuelling.
Also it was able to carry 3 or 4 people, with luggage.
The Pitcairn would need considerable development, a new project actually, in order to be useable.
What about a scaleorama?
Owing to the current financial difficulties, the light at the end of the tunnel will be turned off until further notice.

Weaver

#2
September 20, 2014, 12:23:59 PM Last Edit: September 20, 2014, 12:35:55 PM by Weaver
The German navy used a form of towed autogiro kite for recce from subs in WWII: http://www.uboat.net/technical/bachstelze.htm

I'ver often wondered why autogyros wern't used more for naval recce in the days before the helicopter. You'd think they'd be perfect: the forward motion of the ship would give enough airflow through the rotor to get it spinning and they could then just take off and land "vertically" from a small platform. If they were made a bit bigger and more sophisticated, they could easily incorporate "rotor-kicker" mechanisms that would allow them to take off even when the ship was stationary.

EDIT: link fixed. Cheers Kit! :thumbsup:

"Things need not have happened to be true. Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
 - Sandman: A Midsummer Night's Dream, by Neil Gaiman

"I dunno, I'm making this up as I go."
 - Indiana Jones

PR19_Kit

#3
September 20, 2014, 12:31:02 PM
Quote from: Weaver on September 20, 2014, 12:23:59 PM
The German navy used a form of towed autogiro kite for recce from subs in WWII: http://www.uboat.net/technical/bachstelze.htmf

I'ver often wondered why autogyros wern't used more for naval recce in the days before the helicopter. You'd think they'd be perfect: the forward motion of the ship would give enough airflow through the rotor to get it spinning and they could then just take off and land "vertically" from a small platform. If they were made a bit bigger and more sophisticated, they could easily incorporate "rotor-kicker" mechanisms that would allow them to take off even when the ship was stationary.



http://www.uboat.net/technical/bachstelze.htm

Try that instead, without the 'f' on the end, as the above link comes up with an error.

The Fa330 has been modelled in both scales, I've got one in 1/72 and the kit is flat.....

It's mostly PE and they supply two lengths of 1.5 mm styrene rod which you're mean to split down the centre (!) to make up the landing gear skids.
Kit's Rule 1 ) Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage
Kit's Rule 2) The backstory can always be changed to suit the model

...and I'm not a closeted 'Take That' fan, I'm a REAL fan! :)

Regards
Kit

Rheged

#4
September 20, 2014, 12:44:43 PM
Quote from: Weaver on September 20, 2014, 12:23:59 PM
The German navy used a form of towed autogiro kite for recce from subs in WWII: http://www.uboat.net/technical/bachstelze.htm



This is the machine that produced the Admiralty report "....and should the U boat crash dive, the autogyro pilot jettisons the rotors,  parachutes to the sea surface and then drowns in the traditional manner...."

I'm not sure that I have the quote precisely accurately, but it's approximately thus!
"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you....."
It  means that you read  the instruction sheet

maxmwill

#5
September 20, 2014, 03:48:59 PM
Yes, I know that the PCA-2 isn't much of a load carrier, probably due to the limited power of the engine(a Wright Whirlwind), as well as the wings themselves(like the stub wings on the Hind and Apache, they helped add lift), perhaps something like an upgraded Whirlwind, say, the R975-E-3, which provided 420 to 450 hp, as opposed to the J6-9, which developed 330 hp. Of course, the structure from the landing gear to the engine mount would have to be beefed up(if anyone would be interested, I could recount a similar situation in which an Ayres Thrush Commander crop duster had an R1340 taken off, and an R1820 installed in its place, with no change to the structure. That's what the STC said you could do, and I am not kidding), or even a possible installation of an 1820 in the nose.

In addition, this could have augmented wings, whether with a longer span, or even a better airfoil(and a longer span).

The Japanese put the Kayaba Ka 1/2 to pretty good use.

rickshaw

#6
September 20, 2014, 06:11:14 PM
I wonder how adding jettisonable JATO rockets to the ends of the rotor blades would work?  They would allow you to spin up faster and hence get better lift more quickly than just clutching the engine.

The Soviets did utilise their autogyros apparently in 1941 but they were dead meat when faced with serious fighter opposition.  So they were basically abandoned as observation aircraft.

About the only theatres that I could see them being used successfully would be "backwater" ones where neither side had air superiority.  SW Pacific (New Guinea) and Burma spring to mind.  Their STOL capabilities would allow them to get in and out of small clearings other aircraft couldn't use.   Their relatively short range wouldn't be a disadvantage.   They could be delivered to forward areas in gliders and assembled on the spot.   You'd need to be able to have sufficient "lift" to carry at least four personnel (pilot, observer and perhaps two casualties). 
How to reduce carbon emissions - Tip #1 - Walk to the Bar for drinks.

maxmwill

#7
September 20, 2014, 07:05:26 PM
It's kinda funny that you mention New Guinea, because there was a project which called for the use of jeeps being modified to have autogyro rotors, and it was called Project Skywards, and during development, the craft were referred to as the Fleep. I've been putting together a model of this, the inspiration for it from volume 9 number 1 of Air International, July, 1975. There are a few photos of the mockup in various stages, a 3-view, and a nice illustration in the header page. I had wanted to build it in 1/72(which I really don't like, preferring instead something a bit larger, such as 1/48), but after realizing that the scale wouldn't make much difference(I had a 1/72 scale model of the Avro C30, which was used in the project, but they had modified the original too much for me to be lazy, so I'm building it in 1/48, with the rotor blades and rotor head scratch built).

Weaver

#8
September 21, 2014, 02:03:06 AM
Quote from: rickshaw on September 20, 2014, 06:11:14 PM
I wonder how adding jettisonable JATO rockets to the ends of the rotor blades would work?  They would allow you to spin up faster and hence get better lift more quickly than just clutching the engine.

Should work in principle: there have been several micro-helicopter projects that used some kind of reaction jet mounted on the blades. They normally had a centralised fuel supply through, and that highlights the problem: what if the rockets arn't perfectly synchronised for timing, duration or thrust level?
"Things need not have happened to be true. Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
 - Sandman: A Midsummer Night's Dream, by Neil Gaiman

"I dunno, I'm making this up as I go."
 - Indiana Jones

PR19_Kit

#9
September 21, 2014, 03:14:48 AM
Quote from: Weaver on September 21, 2014, 02:03:06 AM
Quote from: rickshaw on September 20, 2014, 06:11:14 PM
I wonder how adding jettisonable JATO rockets to the ends of the rotor blades would work?  They would allow you to spin up faster and hence get better lift more quickly than just clutching the engine.

Should work in principle: there have been several micro-helicopter projects that used some kind of reaction jet mounted on the blades. They normally had a centralised fuel supply through, and that highlights the problem: what if the rockets arn't perfectly synchronised for timing, duration or thrust level?


The same result as any other fault with a rotary winged device, it crashes..........
Kit's Rule 1 ) Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage
Kit's Rule 2) The backstory can always be changed to suit the model

...and I'm not a closeted 'Take That' fan, I'm a REAL fan! :)

Regards
Kit

NARSES2

#10
September 21, 2014, 08:01:43 AM
The French Navy used autogiros pre war at least (indeed Azure do a kit and I have it)
Do not condemn the judgement of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong.

PR19_Kit

#12
September 21, 2014, 10:32:36 AM
Kit's Rule 1 ) Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage
Kit's Rule 2) The backstory can always be changed to suit the model

...and I'm not a closeted 'Take That' fan, I'm a REAL fan! :)

Regards
Kit

Gondor

#13
September 21, 2014, 11:53:57 AM
The nearest things I could find on the Hannants web site were these

http://www.hannants.co.uk/search/index.php?search=Hafner

I did see a card model listed on Google and I am sure there was a kit at some point in time but as yet I can't find it.

Gondor
My Ability to Imagine is only exceeded by my Imagined Abilities

Gondor's Modelling Rule Number Three: Everything will fit perfectly untill you apply glue...

I know it's in a book I have around here somewhere....
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