Rods from God: Part Deux

[KJ_Lesnick]

Back in the 1980's the United States had actually proposed launching into space a bunch of tungsten darts which could be fired at targets on the ground: They had a guidance system in their tail which would allow them to hit with extreme accuracy.

Though in 1967 we had signed what has been known as the Outer Space Treaty which specifically forbade weapons of mass destruction from being placed in space: This technically didn't qualify due to the fact that WMD include nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons; this wasn't nuclear or chemical, nor was it biological, so it was technically legal and as we know these days, unless something is explicitly forbidden, it means it's acceptable (In addition to watching political antics: I have children and anybody who has dealt with children knows this to be true).

Of course, there were obviously practical issues for doing this: Largely being the necessity to hurl a large object into orbit, then the de-orbit the vehicle: However, a nation could theoretically launch it from a hardened silo, a submarine, or from an aircraft.  Obviously such a weapon would not pack the punch of an ICBM in terms of joules/kilotons/megatons, but it would have more precision, greater penetration and pose no fall-out problems.

Now to be absolutely ridiculous, imagine a kinetic kill vehicle designed to impose a level of damage similar to 450 megatons to 9 megatons.  Obviously it would need to be very very massive and/or boosted to an extremely high orbit, something like 128,500 kilometers (about a third of the way from the earth to the moon) with some maneuvering thrusters, seriously powerful main engines and retro-thrusters with fast-burning high-energy fuel (think Sprint and HIBEX) to quickly slow it down, flip it to the correct trajectory, then stop the flip at the right point, then blast it back down

[zenrat]

Probably simpler to lob things from secret bases on the moon.

Have you seen Iron Skies?

[Spey_Phantom]

you should read up on "Project: Thor"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_bombardment

also, as an example, you should see the movie "G.i.Joe: Retaliation" and look at Cobra Commander's "Project: Zeus".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlrA-vPOGVQ

[rickshaw]

While not expressly prohibited by the Outer Space Treaty (formerly known as the Treaty on Principles Governing the Activities of States in the Exploration and Use of Outer Space, including the Moon and Other Celestial Bodies ), putting weapons in orbit, even if conventional ones, would be considered to run counter to the spirit of the treaty and would set a dangerous precedent.  As you've also pointed out, the physical problems in trying to create the sort of damage desired from a strike with one or more of these "rods from God", would make them technically challenging, to say the least - which is perhaps the biggest reason why the plan never went beyond that of a thought bubble inside some engineer's head.

Now, Kendra, do you know the definition of insanity?    

[KJ_Lesnick]

Zenrat

Does the Outer Space Treaty forbid placing only WMD's on the moon or any military weapons?


Nils

Yes, I have read up on it: Admittedly, I did some calculations and I am surprised that they would produce yields as much as 0.12 kilotons for a 6.1 m x 0.3 m cylinder.  I made estimates for the size of the pointed-section of the penetrator and I got around 5,500 to 7,000 kg depending on whether it was pure tungsten or tungsten carbide.  I did some calculations on impact velocity and I didn't get anywhere near 0.12 kilotons TNT, I got something like 2 metric tons.

As I understand the mathematical formula for impact forces is E = 1/2 m/v.  Unless I got an order of magnitude off or something, impact forces would have to be way higher...


rickshaw

1. Of course it would create a dangerous precedent if it was really done: However, we're just a bunch of people sitting in front of a computer and while I'm of course trying to be conceptually valid in terms of the physics involved, this isn't something that should be taken as genuinely serious

2. The state of being seriously mentally ill: Madness

[Mossie]

In this context, just take the first three letters.  Breaking that may well have resulted in madness.

[luft46models]

Stalin's Hammer: Rome (2012) John Birmingham posits this in the most recent of his Axis of Time series ( used to be a trilogy) as a way for Stalin to get a first strike capability.

William in Oz

[rickshaw]

rickshaw

1. Of course it would create a dangerous precedent if it was really done: However, we're just a bunch of people sitting in front of a computer and while I'm of course trying to be conceptually valid in terms of the physics involved, this isn't something that should be taken as genuinely serious

That is not how your points are phrased, Kendra.

2. The state of being seriously mentally ill: Madness

No, insanity is carrying out the same experiment, time after time but expecting different results every time.  Your questions and threads are exactly like that.  You're given the answers yet you ask the same question, again and again.  Stop it, for me at least, it's bloody annoying and indicative of trolling.

[Mr.Creak]

With regard to calculations it's worth noting that there's a "unit" ¹ of a "Rick" (or, more usefully, a "kiloRick").
An object impacting at 3 km/sec delivers kinetic energy equal to its mass in TNT. (http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacegunconvent.php#firstlaw).
All you need do is play about with mass - 1 kg at 3 km/ sec = 1 kg of TNT thus 1,000 tonnes at that speed = 1 kT, and/ or velocity.
Any object falling from orbit (unpowered) will have a velocity of at least 11 km/ sec.

1 This popped up on SFCONSIM-L and was first, to my my knowledge, put forward by - and thus named after - Rick Robinson.

[KJ_Lesnick]

Mossie

In this context, just take the first three letters.  Breaking that may well have resulted in madness.

I'm confused... and while I might sound stupid, the first three letters of what?

If you mean the title: "Rod"
If you mean the first three letters of Rods From God: RFG
If you mean the post: Bac


Rickshaw

That is not how your points are phrased, Kendra.

How are they phrased then?  I'm honestly not sure I understand what you're saying

No, insanity is carrying out the same experiment, time after time but expecting different results every time.

I don't carry out experiments...

Your questions and threads are exactly like that.  You're given the answers yet you ask the same question, again and again.

No, I ask a question and I don't get an answer or I get a vague answer.

As a result, I try to get a more clarified answer if I can.  This is done two ways: Bump the thread; create a new thread a couple months later figuring somebody might have some new information -- I periodically find myself collecting new information all the time.  

I got a whole slew of books for Christmas which I've started to read (and actually that's where the IFF question I posted came from).

[rickshaw]

Rickshaw

That is not how your points are phrased, Kendra.

How are they phrased then?  I'm honestly not sure I understand what you're saying

I doubt that, Kendra.

No, insanity is carrying out the same experiment, time after time but expecting different results every time.

I don't carry out experiments...

*SIGH* are you being obtuse?   Of course you are.  You're asking questions to see what reactions you get.

Your questions and threads are exactly like that.  You're given the answers yet you ask the same question, again and again.

No, I ask a question and I don't get an answer or I get a vague answer.

As a result, I try to get a more clarified answer if I can.  This is done two ways: Bump the thread; create a new thread a couple months later figuring somebody might have some new information -- I periodically find myself collecting new information all the time. 

I got a whole slew of books for Christmas which I've started to read (and actually that's where the IFF question I posted came from).

Good.  Read the books.  Absorb the knowledge.  Where do you think we got our knowledge from?  For most of us, it is a synthesis of what we have read.  Some of us have taken decades to learn what we know.  Then learn to use google.   Come back to us with questions which are answerable and when we say we can only offer an opinion, accept that.  Don't keep repeating the same blasted questions, hoping to get different answers.   

[KJ_Lesnick]

Mr.Creak

With regard to calculations it's worth noting that there's a "unit" ¹ of a "Rick" (or, more usefully, a "kiloRick").
An object impacting at 3 km/sec delivers kinetic energy equal to its mass in TNT. (http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacegunconvent.php#firstlaw).
All you need do is play about with mass - 1 kg at 3 km/ sec = 1 kg of TNT thus 1,000 tonnes at that speed = 1 kT, and/ or velocity.
Any object falling from orbit (unpowered) will have a velocity of at least 11 km/ sec.

1 This popped up on SFCONSIM-L and was first, to my my knowledge, put forward by - and thus named after - Rick Robinson.

Based on those calculations, a basic guesstimate of the volume of the rod based based on

• A presumed 6.1m length and 0.3m diameter
  
• The fact that it would not be a perfect cylinder but a cylinder with a pointed tip
  
• A guesstimate of the length of the pointed tip relative to the overall vehicle
  
• Whether the design would be made out of pure tungsten or tungsten carbide which affects density
  

the penetrator would weigh around 5,840 to 7,225 kg, and with a stated impact force around 0.12 kT, the weapon would probably have to hit the ground at around 26,600 to 30,400 mph: Well over Mach 10

[martinbayer]

Mossie

In this context, just take the first three letters.  Breaking that may well have resulted in madness.

I'm confused... and while I might sound stupid, the first three letters of what?

I would hazard to guess that it's the first three letters of the word "madness", i.e. MAD as in Mutually Assured Destruction.

Martin

[KJ_Lesnick]

Everybody

Did the concepts include a description that the rods were made of Tungsten or Tungsten carbide?


Martin Bayer

I would hazard to guess that it's the first three letters of the word "madness", i.e. MAD as in Mutually Assured Destruction.

Oh, okay... sorry 'bout that.

[KJ_Lesnick]

Another question: How do you compute volume from mass?