Argentine Fencers

[PR19_Kit]

Well...there are four Flight 1 Ticos at Philly Navy Yard that could probably be refurbished and...leased to the RN

Why a Type 45 is more than capable

Which is why the locals kicked up a stink when we sent one down south fairly recently

That's the usual argument that 'We're allowed to defend our shores but you're not allowed to defend yours.....'

[Martin H]

A bit like the fuss that was made when they thought we had sent one of the Vanguard class subs down their way.

If there was one of our subs down there, its more likely it would have been a Hunter-killer rather than a boomer.

I wouldnt be surprised if this Fencer deal goes no where. Just like the Proposed Grippen sale, and the talk before that of the chinese FC-1 to be built under license by FMA.

The Argies are getting desperate to update their forces from almost any source. They are now surrounded by some very well equipped countries who at one time or another have been at logger heads with them for one reason or another.
Even with our forces paired back as they currently are, the argies are still not able to take us on any thing like a level playing field. Let alone the likes of Chile or Brazil. Both unlikely to resort to any sort of punch up these days but both in a fair position to deal with any threats made from over the border. (if any threat is forthcoming)

They could hurt us if they wanted to. but we can hurt them back a hell of a lot more. even with out carriers.

[rickshaw]

An interesting report.  Could it be an asymmetric response to the UK's support for Ukraine?  If the UK is helping to make the Russians' lives a little harder, doing this sort of deal would return the favour, forcing the UK to divert forces south and at little real cost to Russia.

Anyway, barter deals aren't unusual for Russia.  Indonesia bought it's Su-27MKI fighter bombers partly through Palm Oil.   Malaysia did similar for its MiG-29s and now it's Su-27s with Rubber and Palm products, so it's not exactly unknown.   Way back in the early 1990s, the Russians offered 24 Il-76 transports to Australia in return for a barter deal for wool.   We though, never took them up on it, mores the shame IMO.

[Martin H]

An interesting report.  Could it be an asymmetric response to the UK's support for Ukraine?  If the UK is helping to make the Russians' lives a little harder, doing this sort of deal would return the favour, forcing the UK to divert forces south and at little real cost to Russia.

That reasoning had crossed my mind. And is the only real reason I can see at the moment for the proposed sale/lease being in the Russian interests.

Anyway, barter deals aren't unusual for Russia.  Indonesia bought it's Su-27MKI fighter bombers partly through Palm Oil.   Malaysia did similar for its MiG-29s and now it's Su-27s with Rubber and Palm products, so it's not exactly unknown.   Way back in the early 1990s, the Russians offered 24 Il-76 transports to Australia in return for a barter deal for wool.   We though, never took them up on it, mores the shame IMO.

Now there a whiff build for you. RAAF Candid's

[rickshaw]

As, at the time, the wool price had just collapsed, resulting in a massive stockpile of wool which wasn't going anywhere very quickly, the Soviet Union had just collapsed, resulting in real financial difficulties for the Russians and they had a need for wool to keep their mills running, it would have been a perfect deal.  The Australian Government could have picked the wool up for next to nothing, giving the money to the farmers and then given the wool to the Russians and we'd have gotten some nice, shiny, capable strategic transport aircraft.

My idea was to use them as commercial transports on lease with the RAAF providing crews until they were needed in a defence emergency.  That way they'd have paid for their own upkeep.   I don't doubt that many people in our Department of Defence were kicking themselves when East Timor rolled around and they had to go cap in hand and pay big dollars to lease Russian Volga-Dnepr transport aircraft.

[NARSES2]

I've 3 things to say about this

1) It's in the Daily Express

2) It's in the Daily Express

3) It's in the Daily Express

Enough said ?

[Weaver]

Jane's has said pretty much what I said. Fencers with iron bombs: not too big a deal, Fencers with AS-17s: worrying.

http://www.janes.com/article/47293/uk-reviews-falklands-defence-as-russia-offers-su-24s-to-argentina

[Martin H]

I've 3 things to say about this

1) It's in the Daily Express

2) It's in the Daily Express

3) It's in the Daily Express

Enough said ?

Well it does fit their preferred three lead topics. 
In no particular order.................
1. The EU/Immigration.
2. Princess Diana. 
3. the Falklands.

[Geoff]

I've 3 things to say about this

1) It's in the Daily Express

2) It's in the Daily Express

3) It's in the Daily Express

Enough said ?

It was also on RT as well, and that said "Fencer A's". Wonder how many hours they have left, also what their ECM suite is like??

[kerick]

If Argentina was serious why not get something more modern? Are they that broke? If they are they should stick to bolstering their economy instead of blowing money on nearly obsolete aircraft.

[scooter]

Let's not forget that the last time they did something stupid with their economy in shambles, the Junta in charge decided invading The Falklands was just the distraction that was needed.

(Edited for confusing "there, their, and they're".  I was typing faster than I was proofing )

[PR19_Kit]

Let's not forget that the last time they did something stupid with there economy in shambles, the Junta in charge decided invading The Falklands was just the distraction that was needed.

Pretty well word for word what I was about to write scooter. 

[scooter]

Let's not forget that the last time they did something stupid with their economy in shambles, the Junta in charge decided invading The Falklands was just the distraction that was needed.

Pretty well word for word what I was about to write scooter.  

History, Kit, has a rather sad way of repeating itself.  It may be studied, but its usually ignored.

[Weaver]

The Fencer fits pretty much in between the Tornado and the F-111 size-wise and is of about the same level of sophistication, so I wouldn't be over-confident about writing it off. It was considered a huge threat during the Cold War, and the Russians will have invested heavily in keeping it capable, quite possibly in ways that havn't been revealed (remember how much easier it is to keep secrets in Russia).

Of course, it would be quite possible that Argentina would only get basic 1970s-fit, or even degraded export model Fencers, with a limited selection of high-tech weapons, as has happened before with exports to non-WP customers (look at Peru's Su-22s or Libya's MiG-23s, for example). On the other hand, if Putin really wanted to stir it, he could send them later-model, higher-tech stuff.

It really depends what Putin's game is. If he's just looking to thumb his nose at the Western sanctions by bartering for beef, then Argentina will probably get basic aircraft, since the point of the exercise would be signal sent by their transfer. If he's looking for serious revenge/trouble-causing, however, he might supply more capable aircraft on the understanding that they'd actually be used for some kind of action, possibly timed to distract Britain at a critical moment.

Worth pointing out that Argentina has denied that the deal exists.

[PR19_Kit]

Worth pointing out that Argentina has denied that the deal exists.

Mandy Rice-Davies..............(the late, sadly)