Advanced Tactical Fighter

[KJ_Lesnick]

I'm curious about merely the following

• Why did the YF-22 take so long to go from a prototype, to a pre-production model, to a production model?
  
• Was this technological limitations, budget limitations, political will or some mix?
  
• Would the F-23 have taken longer or shorter to progress to fruition?
  

[pyro-manic]

All of the above reasons, to varying extents. I suspect the F-23 would have been a similar story.

Perhaps try this book for a full account of the programme.

[KJ_Lesnick]

I did find bits and pieces on Google searches: It covers a bit from the late 1980's to the late 1990's.  I didn't find much about delays from 1997-2005.  It seemed like the USAF was taking it's gay old time...

[wuzak]

I did find bits and pieces on Google searches: It covers a bit from the late 1980's to the late 1990's.  I didn't find much about delays from 1997-2005.  It seemed like the USAF was taking it's gay old time...

Rather rapid progress compared to the F-35....

[KJ_Lesnick]

Yeah, but consider the following

• The F-102 first flew in October 1953 and entered service in 1956
  
• The F-106 first flew the day after Christmas in 1956, and was entering service around 1959
  
• The F-15 first flew in 1972, was starting to enter squadrons in 1975 and was fully operational in 1976
  
• The B-58 first flew November 1956, was entering squadrons in 1960 and was fully operational in 1961
  

The YF-22 proof of concept first flew around 1990, was modified into a pre-production model in 1997, and it took another 8 years for it to enter operational use

[pyro-manic]

Different eras, and vastly different challenges.

[KJ_Lesnick]

I figured they were taking their time for awhile because no enemy had a plane with the capability

[sandiego89]

As pyro says, a vastly different aircraft. First stealth air superiorty fighter, with novel stealth, sensor, engine and weapons features.  It took a bit to figure how to put that all that into production.  The stealth shaping and coatings proved especially challenging. The f-22 is closer to revolutionary than evolutionary than some other aircraft you listed, the F-106 was an evolution of the F-102 for example. The F-15 was a big jump in capability, but underneath was still a hydraulic and convetionally made aircraft similar to previous aircraft that had been made for years. The b-58 was a pretty big leap, but there was a big priority to get it fielded, and the funding and timeline reflected that.  Yes the reduced pressure in the post cold war era would allow for a longer gestation for the f-22. 

[Captain Canada]

I can't wait to see one fly. I'm hoping one makes an appearance near Eglin when we're down there.

[RLBH]

Several factors. As has been mentioned, the ATF represents a major technological leap. There's not been a near-peer threat to force things along, so the US government has allowed the project to take as long as it takes. One important one is the modern media, political and corporate culture that considers failure unacceptable. 50 years ago, there would have been half a dozen prototypes testing various aspects of the design, and a couple would have crashed or just not worked. And if the F-22 had failed, then there were half a dozen other companies ready and waiting to replace it. Today, if the prototype crashes, or the systems don't work properly - project cancelled. If the project's cancelled, the company's name is mud and it goes bust. And then there isn't another company that can build an equivalent competitor in a reasonable timescale, due to the complexity involved. So everyone makes 100% sure everything works before moving to the next stage. That costs a lot of time and money. Things can be done much faster and cheaper if you accept that you might need to do them twice, and are willing to accept something that isn't the latest, greatest, whizzbangiest fighter jet going.

To get the ATF into service quickly, I'd have had McDonnell Douglas develop an F-15F with the winning engine. The F-15H (F-15G was of course the FOWW winner) would have had the avionics of the ultimate F-22, but F100 engines. The F-15K would have both, and basically be an F-15 airframe with F-22 innards, debugging the systems whilst the airframe was got ready. Meanwhile, the F-22A would fly in parallel with the F-15H, with latest-generation F-15 avionics and F119 engines. The F-22B would be the twin-seat trainer version, since we're moving more quickly and don't need to save development costs quite so badly. F-22C is the main production model.

The F-22D is then a twin-seat heavy strike version, which incidentally debugs the F135 that's going to go into the F-25 single-seat/single engine for the Air Force and Navy. There is extensive debate about the wisdom of doing so, since the latest F119 would have given the F-22D better supercruise performance, whilst Northrop Grumman was trying to sell a rather neat twin-engine strike aircraft in the vein of the F-111 that bore more than a passing resemblance to an oversized, stretched F-23...

[PR19_Kit]

Today, if the prototype crashes, or the systems don't work properly - project cancelled.

It did, and it wasn't.   

.....whilst Northrop Grumman was trying to sell a rather neat twin-engine strike aircraft in the vein of the F-111 that bore more than a passing resemblance to an oversized, stretched F-23...

I LIKE that idea, and I found another YF-23 kit in The Loft. 

[KJ_Lesnick]

As pyro says, a vastly different aircraft. First stealth air superiorty fighter, with novel stealth, sensor, engine and weapons features.  It took a bit to figure how to put that all that into production.  The stealth shaping and coatings proved especially challenging.

The f-22 is closer to revolutionary than evolutionary than some other aircraft you listed, the F-106 was an evolution of the F-102 for example.

Well, the F-102 first flew in 1953, and the F-106 was in production in 1959 so that's 6 years.  The F-22 first flew in 1990 so that would yield a service entry of 1996.  Admittedly, if one assumed a factor of 1.5, that would still have the aircraft in service by 1999.  The prototype flew in 1990, and by 1997 the F-22 as we know it was first flying.  I would have assumed most of the technology would have been fleshed out from 1990-1997...

Yes the reduced pressure in the post cold war era would allow for a longer gestation for the f-22.

That was what I was getting at. 

That being said: If there was a greater priority and pressure -- how fast would you say it could have been in service assuming

1. It flew in 1990 as it did
2. The development was accelerated in anyway