On JMNs/Rivet Counters

scooter · January 19, 2015, 05:19:33 PM

Posted to the No Rivet Counters group of FB

kerick · January 19, 2015, 05:33:32 PM

He makes great points until he gets to the second to the last line. No need to insult anyone who does prefer to get everything exactly right. Or closer to right than many of us are willing to do.
As the author states, many subjects had numerous changes, substitutions and variations during assembly, not to mention during use. Each B-52 bomber in service today is an individual aircraft due to all the changes and upgrades at different times over the years. This is why I agree with the author but if someone wants a perfect replica of a subject and is willing to do the work, I say have at it. Just keep the personal remarks to oneself.

Weaver · January 19, 2015, 05:41:28 PM

Quote from: kerick on January 19, 2015, 05:33:32 PM
He makes great points until he gets to the second to the last line. No need to insult anyone who does prefer to get everything exactly right. Or closer to right than many of us are willing to do.
As the author states, many subjects had numerous changes, substitutions and variations during assembly, not to mention during use. Each B-52 bomber in service today is an individual aircraft due to all the changes and upgrades at different times over the years. This is why I agree with the author but if someone wants a perfect replica of a subject and is willing to do the work, I say have at it. Just keep the personal remarks to oneself.

I suspect what he meant was that it's just the people who try to force their obsession with accuracy on everybody else who are insecure, not everybody who just likes to be accurate for their own satisfaction. His phrasing was a little ambiguous.

The same point about individual aircraft being different was one of the complicating factors in the Nimrod MRA.4 programme. The new wing had been super-accurately designed in CAD/CAM using the original drawings but due to other programme delays, several of them were built before the first fuselages were ready to take them. Then they found they didn't fit, because none of the original fuselages actually perfectly matched the original drawings...

jcf · January 19, 2015, 05:53:15 PM

^ What he said.

Plus Mr. Zimmer seems confused about accuracy in contests, under IPMS rules the accuracy, or not, of the kit
is irrelevant, what is counted is how well the kit is constructed and finished. If one wishes I suppose
that could be referred to as accuracy in terms of skills, but the shape and historical accuracy of the base
kit are not judged.

As to the notion, which I've heard stated countless times, that including a bunch of aftermarket puts you to the front
of the queue in judging, nawp, as part of judging teams numerous times we've had to kick out heavily detailed models
because of basic skills flaws. Adding X amount of resin and photo-etch won't cover up gaping seams and correctable
misalignments, sloppy paint jobs and fingerprints. Adding bit-n-bobs just increases the odds of the job going pear-shaped.

BTW one of the most Joyful modellers I know is a person who revels in 'accuracy', yet Mr. Zimmer, and others,
would waste no time in slagging him off because of his dedication to getting things right.
So you tell me, who really has the social problem?

jcf · January 19, 2015, 05:55:23 PM

Quote from: Weaver on January 19, 2015, 05:41:28 PM
Quote from: kerick on January 19, 2015, 05:33:32 PM
He makes great points until he gets to the second to the last line. No need to insult anyone who does prefer to get everything exactly right. Or closer to right than many of us are willing to do.
As the author states, many subjects had numerous changes, substitutions and variations during assembly, not to mention during use. Each B-52 bomber in service today is an individual aircraft due to all the changes and upgrades at different times over the years. This is why I agree with the author but if someone wants a perfect replica of a subject and is willing to do the work, I say have at it. Just keep the personal remarks to oneself.

I suspect what he meant was that it's just the people who try to force their obsession with accuracy on everybody else who are insecure, not everybody who just likes to be accurate for their own satisfaction. His phrasing was a little ambiguous.

Sorry Harold, I'm calling BS on that one. Mr. Zimmer's phrasing was anything but 'ambiguous'.

Weaver · January 19, 2015, 05:59:43 PM

Ironic that we're having an argument about exactly what he meant.....

scooter · January 19, 2015, 06:02:34 PM

Having kicked it off...now,

Captain Canada · January 19, 2015, 07:29:01 PM

Build what you want the way you want.

kerick · January 19, 2015, 07:30:55 PM

Quote from: Captain Canada on January 19, 2015, 07:29:01 PM
Build what you want the way you want.

Ditto

Old Wombat · January 20, 2015, 01:08:11 AM

Quote from: Weaver on January 19, 2015, 05:41:28 PM
I suspect what he meant was that it's just the people who try to force their obsession with accuracy on everybody else who are insecure, not everybody who just likes to be accurate for their own satisfaction. His phrasing was a little ambiguous.

Agreed!

Quote from: joncarrfarrelly on January 19, 2015, 05:53:15 PM
... Mr. Zimmer seems confused about accuracy in contests ...

Disagree.

This line sums up what Mr Zimmer thinks (my highlights);

"Rivet counting and obsession with accuracy is not the final arbiter in model competitions,"

I, also, note that that sentence ends with "as suggested", therefore I can only assume that Mr Zimmer was responding to an earlier article or letter in a magazine which, unfortunately, we don't have access to at this time.

Quote from: joncarrfarrelly on January 19, 2015, 05:55:23 PM
Quote from: Weaver on January 19, 2015, 05:41:28 PM
I suspect what he meant was that it's just the people who try to force their obsession with accuracy on everybody else who are insecure, not everybody who just likes to be accurate for their own satisfaction. His phrasing was a little ambiguous.

Sorry Harold, I'm calling BS on that one. Mr. Zimmer's phrasing was anything but 'ambiguous'.

Again, I agree with Weaver on this one.

This sentence (again, my highlights) points to Mr Zimmer's intent;

"It is the province of insecure, pedantic people who choose to inflict unrealistic standards upon others to make themselves feel important."

The phrase "who choose to inflict unrealistic standards upon others" is clearly telling us Mr Zimmer's intent. However, overall, his wording of this sentence is clumsy, open to misinterpretation & inflammatory. I would suggest it was written whilst Mr Zimmer was, himself, incensed by the unseen article/letter to which he is responding (as alluded to earlier), rather than in a cool & completely rational state.

Personally, if getting a model 100% accurate in every miniscule detail makes a modeller happy - good on 'em!

However, if that same modeller then decides that all models (& mine in particular) need to be judged according to their standards - then they can ram their models fair up their clacker!

Cobra · January 20, 2015, 01:51:50 AM

You Guys may Not Know This, but when I was Younger, I Was Tempted to Enter a Model Contest, but being in School and Not Sure about I'd Do, I Didn't. I Think JMNs Take the Fun out of Building and Try to Inflict Their Standards on Folks Who Just Want to Be Happy they Built The Model,Not Get Rewarded or SLAMMED for How They Built it! Don't mean to be a Nutter about it,Just my 2 Cents worth. Dan

PR19_Kit · January 20, 2015, 03:24:48 AM

Many of these people 'who choose to inflict unrealistic standards upon others' will only snipe from the sidelines in my experience. Trying to get any of them to actually judge, or even to enter, a competition is almost impossible. They won't judge because 'None of the entrants comes up to my standards actually'. Of course their latest masterpiece is always '...in the final stages of build. I've been working on it for 5 years you know...'

Rheged · January 20, 2015, 07:31:01 AM

I have an acquaintance who probably counts as the ultimate rivet counter. He is trying to illustrate and then model every steam locomotive that his grandfather and great grandfather drove (Glasgow and South Western, LMS and BR Scottish region). He is aiming for perfect detail and is genuinely counting rivets..

However, he encouraged his younger son to model a couple of Dapol plastic OO gauge "Deltic" diesel locos in Furness Railway 1900 and Highland Railway 1910 liveries. His comment was "Does the finished product match in perfect detail what you had in your imagination?"

This is one rivet counter I'm happy to associate with.

Go4fun · January 20, 2015, 08:13:44 AM

I say if Mr Zimmer talks like he writes he should run for political office. They seem to be able to mesh and mix words to confuse the meaning of a subject also.
Pass the popcorn scooter!

Librarian · January 20, 2015, 10:00:10 AM

In every discipline, be-it comic collecting, birdwatching, films, music, train spotting etc you will always get the serious and unhindered by humour who can ruin it for everyone else. As kit says they can be quietly sidelined and ignored. Do it as you wish and ignore the 'raincoats'. BUT:

One must take into account mental health along the lines of forms of autism (of which Sheldon in Big Bang Theory is, along with the other characters, an exagerration of these people). Many cannot help their rivet counting and strive for perfection. They usually cannot understand return hostility when they push it in others.

I was a perfectionist driven by my autism and it made me much, much worse. I didn't associate with people so wasn't a bother. It's taken years to break away from this madness and I thank any available discount deity for the joy of whiffery....its done me the world of good.