On JMNs/Rivet Counters

PR19_Kit · January 20, 2015, 10:49:47 AM

When I was at the NRM Shildon Museum earlier in the year, giving the Canadian model manufacturers a guided tour of the APT-E, they were making all sorts of detailed notes, and one of them mentioned he really was going to count the rivets to ensure their production model was as accurate as possible. Later in the day I saw him doing exactly that, and he was even MEASURING the size of the various rivet heads! [see below]

As I passed by Bill said 'Didn't you guys use the same size rivets anywhere? I've measured at least three different sizes on here today!' to which I answered 'No, we just grabbed whichever size was handy and drilled to suit.'

Librarian · January 20, 2015, 12:23:13 PM

Important on airliners, though. Screws a fraction of a cm smaller than the required size caused a windscreen on a BAC111 to pop out (along with half a pilot)...frightening. Wonder if under an electron microscope you can check the Airfix kit

.

PR19_Kit · January 20, 2015, 02:33:25 PM

Yes, even fast trains aren't pressurised!

sandiego89 · January 20, 2015, 04:50:20 PM

I liked Zimmer's letter, as I took it as don't be an a$$ and spoil the fun for everyone. I think a good middle ground is a good way to go. If somone asks for opionion on something or really wants to debate the finer points of where the aerial on certain mark of aircraft went, go for it. I also think constructive feedback can be helpfull, and have offered some on this forum, and always hope it is taken that way.

On the other extrreme, if someone takes the time to restore a car, build a model, or grow a rose, i'm not going to walk by and snipe them and say they got the color wrong.

I do think that the snooty attitude of a few, especially with the move towards hyperdetailing and aftermarket parts, has made things less fun for the casual hobbyist.

Librarian · January 21, 2015, 01:07:15 AM

Quote from: PR19_Kit on January 20, 2015, 02:33:25 PM
Yes, even fast trains aren't pressurised!

...but having travelled on some slow Andean trains I wish they were

.

Gondor · January 21, 2015, 02:05:12 AM

Quote from: Librarian on January 20, 2015, 12:23:13 PM

Important on airliners, though. Screws a fraction of a cm smaller than the required size caused a windscreen on a BAC111 to pop out (along with half a pilot)...frightening. Wonder if under an electron microscope you can check the Airfix kit .

That's only applicable if your putting any old rivet into a pre-drilled hole. Kit mentioned that they picked up a rivet then drilled a matching hole to suit. Its a slow method of doing things but it does allow larger or smaller rivets to be used where required rather than trying to use a standard sized rivet for every place regardless of where and what the rivet is holding together.
It's why prototypes and early production examples take so much time to build as they literally are hand crafted.

Gondor

PR19_Kit · January 21, 2015, 05:18:36 AM

The APT-E was different for almost every one of it's test runs over its 4 year life. We were ALWAYS cutting new grilles and making new vent holes in the skin. That one just to the left of Bill's hand wasn't there when it was first built, they had to be added when we uprated the turbines in 1973.

As a result of that the production model has it clearly stated that it's modelled as it is now, and in the same state as when it made it's last run to York in June '76. If anyone wants to model it in an earlier state they'll have their work cut out as there's no way anyone will remember how it looked on any particular date, apart from the very first run in '72, which was well photographed and documented.

That's exactly the problem that the RC/JMNs have anyway, on which actual date is the model being based on? The modeller may have a different date in mind to that which they are basing their 'facts' on.

JasonW · January 22, 2015, 06:23:00 PM

Personally I tend to be in the middle ground of the kit/build accuracy debate. I can certainly see some pretty convincing arguments on each side. That said, I think both sides have extremists in their midst that will rankle some of the more hardcore on the opposing side.

My mother used to say "to each his own". I think there might be some truth to that all these years later. I definitely think it might apply to both sides of this debate. 'Live and let live' and all that.

Alvis 3.14159 · January 22, 2015, 10:03:37 PM

Everybody enjoys the hobby in their own unique way. Some people throw a kit together in a few hours/minutes, declare it done and move on. Some spend years if not decades researching it, modifying it, and painstakingly recreating something in miniature. And some enjoy their hobby by dumping all over others. As much as I try to not be a rivet counter, I don't think castigating all of them as one group of jerks serves anyone well.
I think the term "Rivet Counter" has become a pejorative term, and is not being used accurately. JMN, however, is pretty specific.

Somebody who spends all their time telling others how they did their model wrong should be shown the busy end of a chicken plucking machine and told to find another hobby....

So basically, don't be a jerk and try to enjoy it however you do!

Alvis Pi

NARSES2 · January 23, 2015, 07:23:16 AM

Quote from: Alvis 3.14159 on January 22, 2015, 10:03:37 PM
So basically, don't be a jerk and try to enjoy it however you do!

Alvis Pi

Absolutely Alvis. After all it's meant to be fun

Martin H · January 23, 2015, 12:23:13 PM

Quote from: NARSES2 on January 23, 2015, 07:23:16 AM
After all it's meant to be fun

Is it?
Now he tells me! lol

Howard of Effingham · January 24, 2015, 07:43:39 AM

Quote from: Martin H on January 23, 2015, 12:23:13 PM
Quote from: NARSES2 on January 23, 2015, 07:23:16 AM
After all it's meant to be fun

Is it?
Now he tells me! lol

its a hobby tha's less fun when the carpet monster visits.

still JMN/JMZ and rivet counters are always ripe for baiting

Go4fun · January 24, 2015, 07:53:20 AM

Without the JMNs how could you have the fun of building those models that are just off enough from the norm to get their little minds boiling until they call a convention to look at it and discuss it?

I used to love to do the same thing with the technical inspectors at out local race track.

scooter · January 24, 2015, 09:04:58 AM

Quote from: Howard of Effingham on January 24, 2015, 07:43:39 AM

its a hobby tha's less fun when the carpet monster visits.

That's why the floor of my new hobby room is going to be laminate. So the floor register can gobble up the parts.

Wardukw · January 24, 2015, 10:20:32 PM

Ahhhhh the rivet counter ...the bane of many modelers ,myself included ..i used to be a member on another modeling site and mainly because of the guys on there who are rivet counters i left the site ..they took all the fun out of building models .
I do commission builds and in so doing that i build the model to what the customer wants ..these dudes couldn't get it into their heads that this was not being built right..this i got so sick of explaining that i am building this to what the customer wants that i told many of em to piss off .. just had enough .,thats when i really started to head to the world of what if with a passion ,,there is no rules here and there is no better way to shut one of them up .
I guess at the end of the day its each to their own but not when they tear a model of mine apart for no other reason than a bolt is 1 tenth of a mm to far forward .
I am not saying everyone of them needs to be shot because i do know a few who are quite strange ..one fully admits hes a pain in the arse and wishes it wasnt so ..but there ya go ..one even told me he wished he had the imagination i have ,,that made me feel pretty good .
So the what if world is my world now in most respects yet i still build for commission i just dont show or tell any of them about it

Phill