Before the Enforcer

[maxmwill]

Been thinking of this for a while  now, partly because I'm a cranky smartass who likes to upset and horrify  those who treasure certain flying machines by contemplating grotesque mods of them, then,  after that childish phase has had its run of fun, look at a particular mod. and, given that era is which it could have, might have flown, and the circumstances,  come up with the idea.

First off, what it(you guys must've know this  was next) there was a mod of the P51, similar to the Piper PA48 Enforcer, but a number of years prior, with the same approximate idea of a COIN fighter behind it?

What if the CIA had designs for one or more  countries in Africa, similar to what had begun to take place in the very late 50s to 1961, but earlier, say, 1951, and Ghana began its push for indepedence from the British Crown, and simultaneously, the Soviet Union became interested and the CIA was aware of this.

What if, in their zeal to "do something", yet maintain total secrecy, the CIA began to use extant aircraft, such as the P51, yet modified and marked so as to cloud their origins?

What if the CIA contracted with an outfit similar to On Mark(the company that had done the original work on the Mustang which Piper later bought and produced as the Enforcer), but much earlier, and without the turboprop engine, but with, say a 3350 out of old and tired C119s?

I know that there have are those who really like the Mustang, and have been showing ideas as to whiffing it, trying to keep her lines pure, so I'm sure that some few of those might be a tad horrified with the thought of the clean Mustang with a radial in the nose, and possible the belly radiatr that made it look so distinctive, take heart, because as the 3350 is gonna need an oil cooler, and the Meredith Effect did contribute significantly to  the Mustang's performance, the scoop  stays, only an oil cooler takes the radiator's place, and at least that purity of line remains.

While I picked the Boxcar just as an example, as a possible source of engines, why not? Because the particular variant of the 3350 used in it had an output of some 3500 hp, and as anyone knows, more horsepower means more speed(even with that huge draggy radial up front), or more  carrying capacity for "those tight moments" when an extra gun or bomb might make all the difference, or both.

From what I understand, the most powerful variant of the single(I'm ignoring the P82 here) engine P51 was the Red Baron with a 3,000 hp Griffon engine out of a Shackleton, and this whif is getting 500 more.

And now I'm starting to look for an affordable quarter scale Boxcar to raid nacelles off of to put on a D model P51.

[kitnut617]

Scroll down a bit here

http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,39549.0/highlight,p-86b.html

[Captain Canada]

I like it !

[pyro-manic]

The R-3350 is huge compared to a Merlin. Perhaps use a P-82 fuselage instead, using that extra length to compensate for the extra weight of the engine?

Sounds like it would be a huge amount of work, and thus rather expensive to produce a few "secret" aircraft for a minor proxy campaign. I like the sound of a radial 'Stang though - I'm not particularly keen on the original aircraft, so have at it! As long as it's a "sleek" cowled radial and not a big fat thing (how, say, a Wildcat looks) I think it'll look good.

[maxmwill]

Actually, the 3350 isn't all that much bigger than the Merlin, ad the RR engine is just over 88" long, as opposed to the 3350 being just under 77" long, The 3350, is, however, over 1,000 lbs more. The Merlin produced 1640 Hp, while the 3350-42WA produced 3800 hp.

So, there might have to be some structural beefing.
As far as being too expensive for a proxy campaign, there I'd have to beg to differ, because the Company has always been on a cost bedamned kick for quite  along time, when they justified it to themselves.

[kitnut617]

Actually, the 3350 isn't all that much bigger than the Merlin, ad the RR engine is just over 88" long, as opposed to the 3350 being just under 77" long

You are totally forgetting just how round the R3350 is, it maybe shorter but it's a massive lump which is even big for a P-47 (see XP-72) which is 1.5 times bigger than a P-51.

Merlin; 88"L x 30.8"W x 40"H,  R-3350; 77"L x 50.78"Dia.

The R-3350 would look totally out of place on a P-51 ---

[pyro-manic]

Skyraider.

[scooter]

Skyraider.

Like this, Pyro?

(T-56 in the nose)

[pyro-manic]

There we are! Looks kinda-almost-nearly-Mustang-ish. But bigger.

[scooter]

There we are! Looks kinda-almost-nearly-Mustang-ish. But bigger.

[kitnut617]

The R-3350 would look totally out of place on a P-51 ---

I thought this was a place for the out of place

I would tend to lean towards something that was feasible  ---- or even doable,   But if you want to put a radial onto a P-51, a R-2800 would be more appropriate.  By the way there was a study for a radial engined P-51, only it would have had an R-1830 or R-2000 and it was for an advanced trainer (with a two bladed prop too)

[maxmwill]

Well, I was kind of leaning toward keeping the belly scoop for an oil cooler, instead of the radiator, which would help it keep its "mustanginess".

[Mossie]

1951, and Ghana began its push for indepedence from the British Crown, and simultaneously, the Soviet Union became interested and the CIA was aware of this.

Hawker Sea Fury, with a Double Mamba.  The Blackburn B-88 installation is probably more suited than the Gannet's, if you ignore the deep chin:

[kitnut617]

I got thinking last night about this, if you want to put an R-3350 onto a ""Mustang-ish"" looking aircraft, maybe you should look at the Martin Baker MB5 or the CAC CA-15, both designs were done with multiple engine installations in mind, for radials, Centaurus for the MB5 and R-2800 for the CA-15. Both these aircraft are much bigger than a P-51 of course --

[jcf]

R-3350 installed length varies from 76.26" to 100.12", weight from 2,450 lbs. to 3,690 lbs., diameter from 54" to 56.59".

http://www.enginehistory.org/Wright/C-WSpecsAfter1930.pdf

The C-119 R-3350-85/89 types were 90.80" L X 56.59" D, weight 3,472 lbs, the 3,500 hp was max take-off rating, normal-max was 2,600,
production ended in 1955.
R-3350 production in general ended in 1961, total production 50,192.


R-2800 installed length varies from 59.14" to 106.16", weight from 2,150 lbs. to 2,650 lbs., diameter from 52.5" to 53".

http://www.enginehistory.org/P&W/R-2800/DoubleWaspIndex.pdf
R-2800 production ended in 1960 with 125,334 produced.

The original Dart conversion was done in 1968 by Cavalier rather than On Mark.

All through their life the R-3350s had reliability problems, the R-2800 would be a better choice.