Alternative buys for New Zealand

[Weaver]

Not sure why, but this list came into my head yesterday and I need to nail it to a screen in order to think about something else. I know some people have suggested these elsewhere and even built models of them.

Mods: I did look for a generic NZ thread but couldn't find one. If it exists, please merge the two.

So, whif ideas for other things that the RNZAF might have bought. Some are more credible than others, and all obviously depend on circumstances being slightly different in some way.

Embargoed aircraft.

1. Actually go through with buying the Pakistani F-16s.

Thinking about other , similar situations:

2. Instead of buying the Skyhawks in the late 1960s, buy Buccaneers. Backstory is that they're a batch built for South Africa but never delivered due to the embargo.

3. Instead of upgrading the Skyhawks in the late 1980s, replace them with Jaguars. Backstory is that they were a batch built for Nigeria, but not delivered due to a contract dispute (there were issues with the Nigerian Jags in real life). This would go well with a Hawk buy to replace the Strikemasters, giving an all-Adour powered force.


Joint procurement with Australia.

4. Buy Mirage IIIOs in the 1960s. These could be given a canards + avionics upgrade in the 1990s as an alternative to buying new.

5. Buy Mb.326C/Ks instead of Strikemasters. Particularly credible in view of the later Mb.339 purchase.

6. Buy F-18s in the 1980s.

7. Buy the F-4 Phantoms which the RAAF leased while waiting for their F-111s.


Miscellaneous.

8. Instead of buying the Skyhawks and Strikemasters, buy F-5Es and A-37Bs. Similar "character", better air-to-air capability and an all J85-powered force.

9. Instead of upgrading the Skyhawks, replace them with surplus USN A-7 Corsairs.

10. Instead of upgrading the Skyhawks, replace them and the Strikemasters with a homgenous fleet of Hawk 100/200s. Similar capability but simplified logistics. Shorts Tucanos would make a good addition for basic training.

11. Instead of upgrading the Skyhawks, replace them with ex-Israeli Kfirs, with one of the many upgrade packages offered. I presume NZ can afford to offend Arab states?

12. Get back in the fighter business in the present/near future by buying Gripens.

13. Instead of buying the Mb.339s, replace the Strikemasters with surplus German Alpha Jets.

14. Instead of the cancelled F-16s, buy surplus ex-French Mirage 2000s.

[Thorvic]

You could possibly factor in the Mirage F1 as a 70s alternative strike fighter too.

You can have the Nimrod in place of the Orions, Lynx or Seahawk or possible the AB-212 ASW as the Wasp replacement.

[sandiego89]

Good list, good mental exercise.

15. Gr1/AV8A Harrier purchace for attack instead of Skyhawk very late 1960's/early 1970's.
16. Instead of Skyhawk upgrades, Gr3/AV8C Harrier surplus buy from UK/US 1980's.
17. Instead of Skyhawk upgrade, new Super Entendards, 1980's- perhaps a stretch politically with the Nuke testing.   

[wuzak]

Look at what Australia chooses - then choose something else!

Interestingly the RNZAF has only the T-6 Texan, P-3 Orion, Beechcraft King Air, Boeing 757 and Lockheed C-130 Hercules as fixed wing aircraft. No fighter aircraft at all.

[rickshaw]

Look at what Australia chooses - then choose something else!

Interestingly the RNZAF has only the T-6 Texan, P-3 Orion, Beechcraft King Air, Boeing 757 and Lockheed C-130 Hercules as fixed wing aircraft. No fighter aircraft at all.

They decided they were unnecessary for their defence, being so far from anywhere, except Australia that they didn't need them.  As A**US doesn't exist any more in it's original form, their commitments overseas have been considerably reduced (and only occurring under threat of economic sanction from the US).  They sold all their fighter aircraft to a company in the US which uses them for dissimilar aircraft training with the USN and USAF.   This was one of the major consequences of their withdrawal from A**US and their anti-Nuclear stance under David Langue. 

[DarrenP2]

A4 Skyhawk : Jaguar International or F/A18A
Andover C1  : DHC-5D Buffalo
UH-1H Iorquois : SA-330L Puma or Bell 212/412 or AW139
Bell47             :Hughes 500 or SA342L Gazelle or Westland Scout AH1 or OH58 Kiowa
Wasp HAS1      : Lynx HAS3
CT-4               : SF260W
Beoing 727      : Airbus A310-MRTT
C130 H           : Armstrong Whitworth Argosy
P3B Orion       : CP140 or Nimrod MR2
Fokker Friendship : HS 748 or Andover C1 or DHC 7 or BAe 146
Cessna 421     : Beechcraft B200 super King air or BAe Jetstream 31
Canberra B(I) 12: F4E phantom or F4M Phantom Or Buccaneer S2B
DH Vampire   : Hawker Hunter FGA9

I have always like the thought of AU  New Zealand Armed Forces mainly following the British, Canadian, Australian and Irish Armed Forces.

[DarrenP2]

buying the C7A1 and C8A1 instead of the steyr AUG to replace the SLR & Sterling

[rickshaw]

buying the C7A1 and C8A1 instead of the steyr AUG to replace the SLR & Sterling

Can I ask why?  The Steyr AUG has many inherent advantages over the "conventional" styled firearms like the C7 and the C8, the chief being shortness, coupled with a full length barrel.   There have been no claims about the "lack of stopping power" or accuracy from users of the bullpup styled weapons, while the US Army with their M16 styled weapons have been complaining about the supposed poor performance of the SS109 5.56x45mm round basically from the moment their boots hit the ground in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Then there is the question of balance.  You Guiccify your rifle like many do nowadays and it becomes seriously unbalanced if a "conventional" styled weapon, whereas the rear-heaviness of the bullpup becomes balanced out more evenly.

Most of the criticisms about magazine loading bullpups come from those who are unfamiliar or have never been taught the correct way to do it, with the weapon still into the shoulder.   The same people also tend not to know how not to "palm" the bolt on a bolt-action rifle, I've noticed on various videos available online.   

It is all more about what you are familiar with and trained to use, than anything else, I feel.  I transformed from using the L1a1 to the Steyr without much trouble because I was willing to accept the new weapon when it was introduced into the Australian Army.   

[DarrenP2]

have spoken to both Irish and Australian soldiers about the Steyr and they listed more than a few faults like cocking levers breaking off and the lack of a fire selector leading to issues of firing automatic at times of stress.
TBH I went for the C7/C8 as I prefer it for that period and feel it should have been commonwealth standard. Watched Canadian reserves with C7 and Iron sights out shoot TA troops with SA80 and SUSAT at bisley so was more  than impressed by it. Not a big fan of the bullpup design having used L85a1 snd A2 in British arms and had the opportunity to fire the FAMAS and the AUG.

[rickshaw]

have spoken to both Irish and Australian soldiers about the Steyr and they listed more than a few faults like cocking levers breaking off and the lack of a fire selector leading to issues of firing automatic at times of stress.

Training should fix both those problems.

TBH I went for the C7/C8 as I prefer it for that period and feel it should have been commonwealth standard. Watched Canadian reserves with C7 and Iron sights out shoot TA troops with SA80 and SUSAT at bisley so was more  than impressed by it. Not a big fan of the bullpup design having used L85a1 snd A2 in British arms and had the opportunity to fire the FAMAS and the AUG.

That is a good explanation.  I disagree but I'm not going to fight over it, as I'm not familiar with the British Army's standard of training with the SA80.  I will note that the C7 was a better weapon than the M16 (which I have used) which it was developed from.   However, it still suffers from the inherent problems a "conventional" weapon does, with all it's weight in front of the pistol grip as against behind it, on a bullpup.

[DarrenP2]

going from the worlds armies 1979 by Chris Chant

7 M41 lt tank
9 ferret
66 M113
15 5.5 inch guns
44 105mm M56 Pack Howitizer
24 106mm M40a2 Recoilless Rifle

my changes to that would be for the period of the 1980's/90's

8 FV101 Scorpion
7 FV103 Spartan
1 FV104 Samaritan
2 FV105 Sultan
1 FV106 Samson
8 FV107 Scimitar
66 M113A1
8  FV180 Combat Engineer Tractor
44 105mm L118
12 Javelin/S15 SAM
48 Milan ATGW

[Weaver]

If the NZ Army had M41s and Ferrets, you'd think the Saladin would be a good alternative/addition for the 1960s timeframe.

[DarrenP2]

they had centurion in the 60's but sold them to i think Australia. But agree Saladin would have been a good choice.

[Weaver]

Maybe NZ Saladins would be kept in service forever, with their own "Kahu" upgrade, giving them a 90mm gun plus digital FCS, night vision, and a diesel engine.

[Weaver]

Air New Zealand's got some ATR-72s: what if the RNZAF bought them and converted them to MPAs? There's an MPA version of the ATR-42.