Alternative buys for New Zealand

[DarrenP2]

my preference for the Skyhawk replacement would have been the Jaguar though with the strained french relations that might have been problematic

[KJ_Lesnick]

The F-5's were both good fighters and good bombers actually

[Weaver]

The F-5's were both good fighters and good bombers actually

Yes and no. Good payload and performance but lacking in serious avionics for the job. Clear-weather fighter-bomber basically.

[DarrenP2]

I wonder if the Hawk 100 and 200 would have been a good step down from Skyhawk allowing the RNZAF to keep some fast jet experience and providing a limited capability

[rickshaw]

I wonder if the Hawk 100 and 200 would have been a good step down from Skyhawk allowing the RNZAF to keep some fast jet experience and providing a limited capability

They would have ensured that the RNZAF kept in fast jets, no matter what else.  If RNZAF had purchase 200s, the RAAF would also likely have.

[KiwiZac]

I was doing some random Googling at work the other day and stumbled upon this...I just so happened to build an RNZN, Maverick-armed Lynx HMA.8 a couple of years back!

From Flight Global, 11 September 1996:
New Zealand Navy chooses Lynx

THE ROYAL NEW Zealand Navy (RNZN) has completed its replacement naval helicopter evaluation and recommended selection of the LHTEC T800-powered Westland Super Lynx.

Sources in Westland and Kaman confirm that the RNZN's evaluation has favoured a Super Lynx. It is understood that the Navy's project office is now being wound down.

Final selection remains subject to political approval, and this has been postponed until after New Zealand's general election on 12 October. Deferring an official decision is also intended to bring the RNZN's programme in line with Australia's selection of a new naval helicopter, which is now scheduled, for mid-October.

The RNZN requires up to six helicopters to replace its fleet of Westland Wasps. With the Wasps due to be phased out by mid-1997, and the first of New Zealand's new ANZAC frigates due to enter service shortly, the Navy has asked to lease Royal Navy Lynx helicopters as a stop-gap measure.

Australia's project 1411/1427 calls for the purchase of 14 new shipboard helicopters, with an option for a further nine. The Royal Australian Navy's selection has been narrowed down to the Super Lynx and Kaman SH-2G Super SeaSprite.

[Weaver]

I bet they wish they had bought the Lynx!

[Logan Hartke]

New Zealand or Australia, Weaver?

Maybe I'm not super familiar with the situation, but I thought that New Zealand was fairly pleased with the SH-2Gs it operates. It was the Australians that had such a terrible experience and it seems to be as much their own fault in the procurement process as Kaman's. This seems to be borne out by the fact that New Zealand then snapped up the same helicopters that caused the Australians such headaches.

New Zealand's still convinced it got a good helicopter at a significantly lower cost than the Super Lynx, and I'm not sure they're wrong.

Cheers,

Logan

[Weaver]

New Zealand or Australia, Weaver?

Maybe I'm not super familiar with the situation, but I thought that New Zealand was fairly pleased with the SH-2Gs it operates. It was the Australians that had such a terrible experience and it seems to be as much their own fault in the procurement process as Kaman's. This seems to be borne out by the fact that New Zealand then snapped up the same helicopters that caused the Australians such headaches.

New Zealand's still convinced it got a good helicopter at a significantly lower cost than the Super Lynx, and I'm not sure they're wrong.

Cheers,

Logan

Sorry, yes you're right. I was forgetting that NZ had a very different experience with the SH-2G than Aus.

[rickshaw]

The SH-2G experience was enough to make most RAN service people to shudder and it was, as you pointed out, Logan primarily a problem of their own making.  They thought they were getting cheap airframes at the end of the Cold War that the USN no longer wanted and then decided they'd like to upgrade their avionics to the latest standard.  They didn't have the experience and they keep changing the specifications so the whole project dragged on until it was canned (as it should have been) with only the cockpits upgraded.  The RNZN were quite happy to snaffle the half finished airframes and have been using them ever since.   We ended up with the NH90 instead.

[wuzak]

The SH-2G experience was enough to make most RAN service people to shudder and it was, as you pointed out, Logan primarily a problem of their own making.  They thought they were getting cheap airframes at the end of the Cold War that the USN no longer wanted and then decided they'd like to upgrade their avionics to the latest standard.  They didn't have the experience and they keep changing the specifications so the whole project dragged on until it was canned (as it should have been) with only the cockpits upgraded.  The RNZN were quite happy to snaffle the half finished airframes and have been using them ever since.   We ended up with the NH90 instead.

Was that the program where Australia was paying a new helicopter price for upgraded '60s airframes?

[Logan Hartke]

The SH-2G experience was enough to make most RAN service people to shudder and it was, as you pointed out, Logan primarily a problem of their own making.  They thought they were getting cheap airframes at the end of the Cold War that the USN no longer wanted and then decided they'd like to upgrade their avionics to the latest standard.  They didn't have the experience and they keep changing the specifications so the whole project dragged on until it was canned (as it should have been) with only the cockpits upgraded.  The RNZN were quite happy to snaffle the half finished airframes and have been using them ever since.   We ended up with the NH90 instead.

I thought you guys got the MH-60R for ASW? I live in Jacksonville, Florida, which is home to more MH-60Rs than anywhere else in the world as far as I know, so I see them in our skies on basically a daily basis. I also know a number of MH-60R pilots (was chatting with one of them at church on Sunday), and they seem to like it. Good piece of kit from what I understand, so I don't think you ended up at a bad place, you just took the long way to get there.

Cheers,

Logan

[rickshaw]

The SH-2G experience was enough to make most RAN service people to shudder and it was, as you pointed out, Logan primarily a problem of their own making.  They thought they were getting cheap airframes at the end of the Cold War that the USN no longer wanted and then decided they'd like to upgrade their avionics to the latest standard.  They didn't have the experience and they keep changing the specifications so the whole project dragged on until it was canned (as it should have been) with only the cockpits upgraded.  The RNZN were quite happy to snaffle the half finished airframes and have been using them ever since.   We ended up with the NH90 instead.

Was that the program where Australia was paying a new helicopter price for upgraded '60s airframes?

Bascically it was more like new+another helicopter prices for a used 60s airframes.

[rickshaw]

The SH-2G experience was enough to make most RAN service people to shudder and it was, as you pointed out, Logan primarily a problem of their own making.  They thought they were getting cheap airframes at the end of the Cold War that the USN no longer wanted and then decided they'd like to upgrade their avionics to the latest standard.  They didn't have the experience and they keep changing the specifications so the whole project dragged on until it was canned (as it should have been) with only the cockpits upgraded.  The RNZN were quite happy to snaffle the half finished airframes and have been using them ever since.   We ended up with the NH90 instead.

I thought you guys got the MH-60R for ASW? I live in Jacksonville, Florida, which is home to more MH-60Rs than anywhere else in the world as far as I know, so I see them in our skies on basically a daily basis. I also know a number of MH-60R pilots (was chatting with one of them at church on Sunday), and they seem to like it. Good piece of kit from what I understand, so I don't think you ended up at a bad place, you just took the long way to get there.

And an expensive way to get there...   

[Weaver]

Still, Lynxes for NZ and/or Aus would have been very credible and would make an interesting Whif.