World War One Whifs

[stevehed]

Thanks Guys. I always rig but regard it as a chore so I tend to restrict myself to the wings. If it's a big'n I might add a few wires to the tail unit. As for the rest that's what imagination was created for.

I was quite surprised myself at how Germanic the finished model looked. I've said elsewhere that it looked like an Albatros CIII on steroids. It appears that the old Biff might have a bit more conversion potential than first thought.

I debated with myself whether or not to give the Bulgar a more triangular DFW type tail unit. Apart from my usual laziness I reckoned that the surface area of the Bristol tail planes was certainly no less and quite possible slightly greater than the DFW so went with the kit parts.

Regards, Steve

[Glenn Gilbertson]

Plausible and different - well done!

[RAFF-35]

I was thinking of doing a WW1 whiff at some point soon as I feel it's quite an unexplored corner of our hobby, which is why I love this page so much  I was just wondering your opinion of a dedicated ground attack aircraft? Possibly a fusion of two R.E.8's using both engines, two sets of undercarriage and maybe a rudimentary nose turret, 'armoured' undersides and bomb racks? The purpose to attack trenches, trains, airfields and convoys

[63cpe]

Good point there RAFF-35. I like your idea of a ground attacker and the proposed conversions. May I add the idea of the fire-Hedgehog:

hedgehog_2 by David Dunnebier, on Flickr

This cassette was put in the belly of an TU-2 in WW2....so why wasn't it trialled over the trenches in WW1?

David

[zenrat]

More on the Fire Hedgehog here.

I have a couple of WW1 planes in the stash but no plans other than a paint whiff.

Must  Get  Inspiration  ...


<edit>
The link above seems to fail to show anything more than a message saying the content is no longer available.
However, if you type "fire hedgehog" into google you'll get a link to exactly the same url which if clicked on should show the content.  If you can be bothered.

[RAFF-35]

Fascinating weapons concept there 63cpe  but I'm not sure that having rockets in a manly wooden/canvas structure 

[zenrat]

Not rockets, 88 PPSh sub machine guns.

[stevehed]

I was thinking of doing a WW1 whiff at some point soon as I feel it's quite an unexplored corner of our hobby, which is why I love this page so much  I was just wondering your opinion of a dedicated ground attack aircraft? Possibly a fusion of two R.E.8's using both engines, two sets of undercarriage and maybe a rudimentary nose turret, 'armoured' undersides and bomb racks? The purpose to attack trenches, trains, airfields and convoys

Hi,
    Seems  plausible to me. Some BE2's were armoured in similar fashion to undertake some of the first contact patrols. I think during the Battle of the Somme. The proposed configuration was used by several designers in WW1 and you could install downward firing mgs. The German J types used twins and batteries of six were trialled. By EOW they had a working 20mm cannon. Be surprised if the Allies weren't testing something similar.

Regards, Steve

[nighthunter]

Actually there were Sopwith Camels which used 2 Lewis guns in the belly to strafe the Boche trenches in WW1

[RAFF-35]

Ohh fantastic stuff, needs further research me thinks 

[NARSES2]

I was thinking of doing a WW1 whiff at some point soon as I feel it's quite an unexplored corner of our hobby, which is why I love this page so much  I was just wondering your opinion of a dedicated ground attack aircraft? Possibly a fusion of two R.E.8's using both engines, two sets of undercarriage and maybe a rudimentary nose turret, 'armoured' undersides and bomb racks? The purpose to attack trenches, trains, airfields and convoys

Very plausible and quite possibly actually schemed. There were so many designs, quite a lot of which actually went to prototype, in WWI that almost anything we can think of they did as well. The 144 SIG display at Huddersfield had a lot of WWI prototypes and paper designs on display and there were a couple very similar to what you propose. The only part of your concept they hadn't covered was the turret. Mind you I'm only aware of the British designs, the French were equally as prolific. Not sure at all about the Germans and Austrians.

Only part of your concept that makes me shiver are the letters/number RE8. That Airfix kit still gives me nightmares 

[RAFF-35]

I was thinking of doing a WW1 whiff at some point soon as I feel it's quite an unexplored corner of our hobby, which is why I love this page so much  I was just wondering your opinion of a dedicated ground attack aircraft? Possibly a fusion of two R.E.8's using both engines, two sets of undercarriage and maybe a rudimentary nose turret, 'armoured' undersides and bomb racks? The purpose to attack trenches, trains, airfields and convoys

Very plausible and quite possibly actually schemed. There were so many designs, quite a lot of which actually went to prototype, in WWI that almost anything we can think of they did as well. The 144 SIG display at Huddersfield had a lot of WWI prototypes and paper designs on display and there were a couple very similar to what you propose. The only part of your concept they hadn't covered was the turret. Mind you I'm only aware of the British designs, the French were equally as prolific. Not sure at all about the Germans and Austrians.

Only part of your concept that makes me shiver are the letters/number RE8. That Airfix kit still gives me nightmares 

Wow really??? Any photos you could share of the Huddersfield projects, or is that wishful thinking?  I was only planning the framework around the RE.8 as at the time, there were two kits going reasonably on eBay, although ideally I'd want the Bristol F.2b to be the basis of my build 

[zenrat]

The RAF used the Harry Tate in Russia when fighting for the White Russians in 1919 so it wouldn't be unfeasible for one to have been captured and used by the fledgling Soviet Empire and thus be acceptable for the Soviet GB.

[NARSES2]

Wow really??? Any photos you could share of the Huddersfield projects, or is that wishful thinking?

I didn't have my camera, sorry. However I know they will be at Southern Expo in March and I will have my camera there

[stevehed]

Hi All,
        My latest flight into whiffery. This is a bomber constructed at the former Lebedev factory at Petrograd under the supervision of Nicholai Polikarpov who later became one of the Soviet Union's greatest designers. Built at the request of the Red Navy during a time of near critical equipment shortages it utilised DH4 fuselages amalgamated to modified Spad VII wings and a locally designed tail unit. Four aircraft were built and they served throughout 1919 against the Whites and Allies as they attempted to take Petrograd. This brought them into conflict with Royal Navy operations in the Baltic which came under aerial attack on several occasions.







Build thread http://airfixtributeforum.myfastforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=591&t=50315

As for the rest of the back story we need to go back to 1918 when Nicholi Polikarpov was appointed by the Bolsheviks as a designer to the former Dux aircraft factory in Moscow. This company was to start production of the Airco DH4 in October 1917 but the Revolution forestalled any meaningful production. In fact  it wasn't until 1920 that DH4 production began when some Fait 260hp, Mercedes 260hp and Puma 230hp engines were acquired. Twenty aircraft were built circa 1920-21. Production continued during 1922-23 with a Russian version of the DH9 and about 130 were built with Puma engines and another 100 with Mercedes powerplants. A further 20 were built with 240hp BMW engines. In 1923 the main variant entered production. This was a Russian built DH9A based on examples captured from the Whites.  It was essentially a DH9A which had been redesigned to use materials more readily available in Russia. Initially powered by 400hp Liberty engines the majority used the M-5, a licence built version. By the end of 1927 about 2000 had been built and this had increased to 2800 when production ceased in 1931. Now the point of this little history lesson is to inform the reader that all these aircraft, comprising at least three different types with at least six different powerplants, were designated as Polikarpov R.1. Strange but information has come to light that suggests that the first R.1 was built not in Moscow but in Leningrad, then known as Petrograd, and used by the Red Navy against the Royal Navy in the Baltic during 1919. It appears that Polikarpov and a small team of experienced factory hands was ordered to inspect the former Lebedev factory and categorize what remained useable. The Baltic front was extremely volatile at this time with Anti-Bolshevik forces threatening Leningrad and the Red forces were desperate for replacements. Polikarpov set about organising the few remaining aviation workers to keep the Red aircraft flying. As in Imperial days the biggest problem was the shortage of suitable engines which meant there were many more airframes than motors. It was this situation that led to Polikarpov designing an aircraft to meet Navy demands for a fast reconnaissance/bomber. Lebedev was to have been another licence producer of the DH4 and there were several fuselages within the factory. Originally intended to be copied so that jigs could be made they remained in good condition. Although wingless there were engineless Spad VII airframes and Polikarpov's team came up with the means to adapt Spad wings to fit the DH4 airframes. Tail units and undercarriage were adapted from whatever was available but all would have been for nought without suitable engines. But several 220hp Renault 12 cylinder V types had been rescued from the advancing Germans in 1918. Originally used on the Ilya Mourometz heavy bombers the Renaults had been salvaged and sent to safety before 38 aircraft had been burned to prevent them falling into enemy hands. These engines made Polikarpov's design viable, the first R1. No one is sure whether there were two or four aircraft built but reports suggest the R1's were active against Royal Navy shipping off the Estonian coast and Finland. They also participated in missions against the White Northern armies during the Red offensives in the late summer and autumn of 1919. As with other ad hoc solutions created in perilous times what evidence remains is often circumstantial but bearing in mind Polikarpov's later successes we know he cut his teeth during a time when putting pen to paper was of lesser importance than getting the job done.
Regards, Steve