Use of Swastika on models?

[seadude]

Ok, I'm sure this has been talked before in the past, but for me, I'm a bit "uninformed" on the subject. When it comes to building whif or non-whif vehicles that may or may not have the red flag with swastika symbol on it, when is it allowed and not allowed, as well as where would it be allowed? I know in Germany that the symbol is banned. And most model kit manufacturers won't put the symbol on the decal sheets. And if they do, the black swastika is "broken up" into individual pieces. What do other countries and contests allow? Does the IPMS have any rules/guidelines on using the swastika?

[Sticky Fingers]

As far as I know, the European ministers of Justice agreed in 2005 that there will not be a European-wide law that forbids the use of swatica's because it would interfere with the freedom of speech. The only countries where there's an explicit law against the use of that symbol are Austria and, indeed, Germany.

[kitbasher]

Use of the swastika in the correct historical context is, well, historically correct. Denying it's use is tantamount to altering history.  Use on a model does not intrinsically suggest glorification of the symbol as used by the Nazi Party.

Interesting to thumb through current German aviation and modelling magazines: there'll be photos of Nazi-era Lufttwaffe types (for example) with the swastika untouched, but drawings won't show the swastika.

[Weaver]

You see plenty of swastikas on models in UK IPMS shows: not sure if the absence of one is counted against a model in judging? I'd say go for it, just don't take the model to Germany.

The most ridiculous part of the whole business is kit manufacturers refusing to put Finnish blue swastikas on decal sheets. Finland adopted the swastika before the Nazi party even existed and only allied themselves to Germany in order to save themselves from unprovoked attack by the Soviet Union.

[Dizzyfugu]

In Germany it's a touchy subject. Public presentation of a swastika is forbidden by law, since it is (still) seen as a political symbol and unfortunately there are still dumbheads around that live in the xenophobic and megalomanic past from 80 years ago. Outside of Germany, things are more liberal - I remember when Prince Harry was once shot for the yellow press in a HJ uniform for a costume party it caused a LOT of disturbings here, even though for the Bristish it would just be a (historical) costume... It's the same with (authentic) uniforms and military cosplay. VERY distrubing around here, and Nazi uniforms are forbidden. A swastika can actually hurt a lot of people's feelings around here, but it's a regional phenomenon.

[Librarian]

I'd be very interested to know how the law stands within Germany and Austria concerning the use of this symbol by Hindus during the Diwali Festival. Here, in East London, during this time, every door, doorstep and window is decorated with this very important religious symbol. You will see people (children especially) with bright red svasticas painted on their foreheads. It is their (and many earlier civilizations ) symbol by rights, predating the Nazis use by thousands of years.
No one wants to upset anyone and dredge up memories from recent history (I used it recently on a GB contribution and removed it shortly after taking photographs ((and I'm married to a Hindu)) because it upset me) but I am interested to know if this has ever been debated within Ger/Aus, or do the Hindus ( as they usually do) defer quietly to national sensibilities and keep it behind closed doors.

[Dizzyfugu]

Well, there are AFAIK no big Indian communities around here, but I'd say that the display of a swastika - even if it has a different cultural background - is still forbidden in Germany, due to the political association with the symbol. You would not believe how "creative" Neo Nazi groups are when it comes to incorporate suggestive symbols for public appearance, trying to avoid the "no swastika" laws. You can laugh or cry.

[Weaver]

You would not believe how "creative" Neo Nazi groups are when it comes to incorporate suggestive symbols for public appearance, trying to avoid the "no swastika" laws. You can laugh or cry.

Which demonstrates what a pointless exercise it is to try to change peoples' thoughts and feelings by banning symbols or words. A word or a symbol mean what you choose them to mean: ban one and another will serve just as well in it's place. Personally, I'd rather see neo-Nazis wearing swastikas so that every one understands exactly what they're about, rather than seeing people with "wierd cross-ish shaped things" and not knowing who they really are or what they stand for.

[Dizzyfugu]

It's not that easy, and the ban is IMHO fully understandable.

[ChernayaAkula]

There is no, repeat, NO blanket ban of the swastika in Germany. The swastika is outlawed in certain contexts. Well, actually, it is the other way 'round: Public use of the swastika is specifically allowed in certain situations. A subsection of our Criminal Code gives the relevant details. An English translation of said paragraph can be found on Wikipedia: LINK!
As can be seen, Art. 86 (3) states that the swastika (only one of several affected symbols or actions) can be used if the use "serves to further civil enlightenment, to avert unconstitutional aims, to promote art or science, research or teaching, reporting about current historical events or similar purposes."
That means that in every possible situation in which you might want to publicly display a swastika, you can.

Regarding the scale modelling situation: In the 1970s, some German judge decided that swastikas shouldn't appear on toys. He feared (quite rightly, I'd say) that - with no context provided - the symbol could be seen by children as just one of many symbols. Scale models were also seen as toys.
But don't models "teach" or "report on historical events"? Well, no. If you look at model exhibitions, they do precious little to provide context. Maybe there'll be a sign stating the type, date and area of operations. Pilot's name and number of kills at most. That's not providing context. And looking around the displays, one could get the impression that WWII was spent lounging in deck chairs near your fighter or fixing your Tiger's engine. And the builders are, for the most parts, not historians.
And the blurbs on manufacturer's boxes also do very little to inform on historical matters. It's usually just the technical bits, size, speed, range, armament,... I remember there being He 162 Volksjäger kits stating that the He 162 was to be built "from kits by unskilled labour in underground facilities". None of the kits inform that the unskilled labour was basically an "extermination by work" programme that used incarcerated Jews (or other "unwanteds") or prisoners of war as slave labourers, working them to death through exhaustion/starvation in marginally ventilated mining tunnels.
Are models "art"? Well, that's a more difficult question, but looking at public exhibitions again, I'd say that most are not.

The "ban" is not an attempt to cover up or deny our history. It only serves to keep the neo-fascist f**k-wits from rallying under said flag. It serves to ensure that the survivors of the Nazi rule living in Germany would never have to see these symbols carried through the streets again.
Does the ban automatically mean neo-Nazis will go away or keep people from becoming neo-Nazis? No, of course not. But it also doesn't make it any easier for them.

[Geoff]

I have seen German club models at SMW with the tails of the aircraft covered with small tissue paper covers. Struck me as dumb initially, in that I didn't think "Well I wonder what's under that?" Also it was not necessary at the show. But it did get my attention. I never worked out if they did it out of habit, or were making a political comment. I did not ask them unfortunately.
I make a lot of Russian stuff. Stalin was as bad/worse IIHO, and am doing some Iraqi Wifs.. The markings on a model do not reflect my politics.

[Weaver]

Does the ban automatically mean neo-Nazis will go away or keep people from becoming neo-Nazis? No, of course not. But it also doesn't make it any easier for them.

The fact that neo-Nazis still exist and have actually grown more numerous shows that the ban doesn't make things any harder for them, so in that case, what is the point?

It also remains inconsistent: you can publish a picture of a WWII Luftwaffe plane in a "plane-spotter" type book which gives just as little historical context as kit instructions or a model show.

[Librarian]

Although a slightly petty addition to this discussion, I love realistic and well executed aviation art. It always deeply upsets me when I see a beautifully rendered painting by Hasegawa's Koike or Revell's Friedl (not sure that's spelt right) with the said symbol either completely missing or a black angled square. History should be allowed to be accurate but monitored for the good reasons stated above.

[pyro-manic]

You would not believe how "creative" Neo Nazi groups are when it comes to incorporate suggestive symbols for public appearance, trying to avoid the "no swastika" laws. You can laugh or cry.

Which demonstrates what a pointless exercise it is to try to change peoples' thoughts and feelings by banning symbols or words. A word or a symbol mean what you choose them to mean: ban one and another will serve just as well in it's place. Personally, I'd rather see neo-Nazis wearing swastikas so that every one understands exactly what they're about, rather than seeing people with "wierd cross-ish shaped things" and not knowing who they really are or what they stand for.

This, a thousand times this.

[zenrat]

In an ideal world the nazi swastika would have become just another symbol.  One that provoked people to ask "why is that drawn the wrong way round?".
Don't forget the evil, just remove the power of the symbol by rendering it normal - something that is only seen in old pictures or on "toy" aircraft.

I once went to a classic vehicle show attended by WW2 re-enacters.  I was interested to see that while people in British, American and German uniforms mingled and chatted to each other they all ignored those in SS uniforms.