Autogyro embarked in Battlships

[Weaver]

The military services of both countries tested autogiros and were unimpressed by their capabilities and
the lack of near term improvement in the offing, also they were abreast of helicopter developments
which promised to overcome the weak points of the autogiro, so they started moving towards the helicopter
fairly early.

Add the end of the day, plain ol' physics was the bigger challenge than any lack of funding.

The criteria used to test something, and the options and assumptions against which it is tested, have an enormous influence on the conclusions. You could easily concoct a test that would reject the Spitfire or the F-16, if you tested then against the stated requirements for the Lancaster and the F-111 respectively. One of the problems of innovative, disruptive technologies is that there is no precedent or established pattern of usage against which to evaluated them, so they tend to be evaluated against requirements that are inapproprate or which ignore their unique new capabilites.

Another factor is real world experience. If a field evaluation of autogyros had resulted in a real victory in a real conflict that couldn't have been achieved with the conventional aircraft of the day, then every field commander would have been clamouring for them, irrespective of theoretical test results. There's an element of luck and timing involved in the success of a system too.

The physics challenges were beaten with research effort. We know from countless examples that throwing more money, resources and people at a problem CAN (not always will, but often) solve that problem faster. Ground resonance was beaten into submission by doing hundreds of empirical tests, which only got funded once there was a solid requirement for a large number of powerful helicopters. There was nothing about that work that couldn't have been done fifteen or twenty years earlier had there been the will to make the effort at the time.

My favorite example of things being developed when they're wanted, rather than when they become possible, is the powered gatling gun. The US Govt. contract for the Vulcan cannon was issued in 1946, but the first patent for an electrically-driven gatling gun was registered by Richard Gatling himself in 1893. So what happened in those 53 years? Did the technology become unavailable or forgotten? Nope, it was just that nobody wanted one. Had a navy (my favorite candidate, because their standard vehicles had electrical power earlier than anybody else's) decided that they wanted an electric gatling gun in 1917, or 1927, or 1937, they'd certainly have got what they wanted in short order.

[scooter]

Had a navy (my favorite candidate, because their standard vehicles had electrical power earlier than anybody else's) decided that they wanted an electric gatling gun in 1917, or 1927, or 1937, they'd certainly have got what they wanted in short order.

Might have made Pearl Harbor or the Japanese raid on Force Z off Malaysia go a bit differently.  As well as Taranto and Midwy

[jcf]

http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,25696.msg373392.html#msg373392

Crocker-Wheeler electricaly driven Gatling built for the USN 1890.




Scientific American, 15-11-1890.

The French were the largest users of autogiros for military purposes with minimal results, and the
main problem is that in the period and in the war that was fought autogiros were too slow, conventional
aircraft performed the observation and recce mission more effectively, and STOL-biased aircraft like the
Storch had a performance very similar to the best available design, the C.30A.

[Nick]

Had a navy (my favorite candidate, because their standard vehicles had electrical power earlier than anybody else's) decided that they wanted an electric gatling gun in 1917, or 1927, or 1937, they'd certainly have got what they wanted in short order.

Might have made Pearl Harbor or the Japanese raid on Force Z off Malaysia go a bit differently.  As well as Taranto and Midwy

Never mind the big battles, how about Gatling guns on the Yangtze Patrol in the 1920's and 30's?
Royal Navy China Station?
Royal Navy in the Baltic against the Bolsheviks?
Q-ships in the Atlantic? These might also warrant autogyros to spot the U-Boats.

Mount some on armoured landing craft at D-Day and provide serious suppressive fire against the German defenders.

[Rick Lowe]

Ooh, how about a version of the Monitor or Landing Craft Gun, with Gatlings instead of MGs or Oerlikons? With the large well deck of, say, an LCM3 you'd have a Smurf-Load of ammo... and probably go through it in about a minute flat, but if you were towing another LCM loaded with ammo only?...

Short-range, granted, but the Royal Navy did have a tradition of closing with the enemy...

Just stray, random thoughts from Left Field...

[Weaver]

Okay, I didn't mean for the Gatling comment to take over Ysi's thread! Sorry Ysi!

There's a dedicated thread about Gatlings, where I suggest we continue this strand further if we want to, here: http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,25696.0/highlight,gatling.html

MODS: any chance of moving all the relevent posts over to there please?

[Geoff]

The IJA operated autogiros off the Akitsu Maru which was a small army escort carrier/landing craft depot ship. Maybe a system like the IJNs hybrid Carrier/Battleship would work, but I suspect the use of fixed wing aircraft would be better.

[Weaver]

The problem with all floatplane operations from non-carrier ships is the recovery. They have to land on the sea, which therefore has to be relatively calm, the ship has to come to a dead stop, which may or may not be tactically desirable, and they then have to spend a considerable amount of time carefully winching the plane on board. Autogyros avoid all of this, the only requirement being that the ship steam into wind for a few minutes. For a battleship, or especially a scouting cruiser, that's a significant advantage.

[NARSES2]

Okay, I didn't mean for the Gatling comment to take over Ysi's thread! Sorry Ysi!

There's a dedicated thread about Gatlings, where I suggest we continue this strand further if we want to, here: http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,25696.0/highlight,gatling.html

MODS: any chance of moving all the relevent posts over to there please?

I would if I could remember how to  I can move an entire thread but not a specific reply to a specific area.  Brains gone on strike today for some reason 

[Weaver]

Okay, I didn't mean for the Gatling comment to take over Ysi's thread! Sorry Ysi!

There's a dedicated thread about Gatlings, where I suggest we continue this strand further if we want to, here: http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,25696.0/highlight,gatling.html

MODS: any chance of moving all the relevent posts over to there please?

I would if I could remember how to  I can move an entire thread but not a specific reply to a specific area.  Brains gone on strike today for some reason 

There's a 'split topic' button on the screens where I've got Mod priviledges, but I've never actually used it. Sorry I can't be more help, and don't sweat it: you've got other things to think about.

[PR19_Kit]

The problem with all floatplane operations from non-carrier ships is the recovery. They have to land on the sea, which therefore has to be relatively calm, the ship has to come to a dead stop, which may or may not be tactically desirable, and they then have to spend a considerable amount of time carefully winching the plane on board. Autogyros avoid all of this, the only requirement being that the ship steam into wind for a few minutes. For a battleship, or especially a scouting cruiser, that's a significant advantage.

Skyhooks, that's the answer, Skyhooks.......

[NARSES2]

There's a 'split topic' button on the screens where I've got Mod priviledges, but I've never actually used it. Sorry I can't be more help, and don't sweat it: you've got other things to think about.

I can split it fine but I'll be hanged if I can remember (have I actually done it ?) how to move part of this thread to the existing Gatling gun thread 

[rickshaw]

The problem with all floatplane operations from non-carrier ships is the recovery. They have to land on the sea, which therefore has to be relatively calm, the ship has to come to a dead stop, which may or may not be tactically desirable, and they then have to spend a considerable amount of time carefully winching the plane on board. Autogyros avoid all of this, the only requirement being that the ship steam into wind for a few minutes. For a battleship, or especially a scouting cruiser, that's a significant advantage.

Skyhooks, that's the answer, Skyhooks.......

Which is basically what they use. Harold is a little bit wrong.  Yes, the Sea has to be relatively calm but the ships don't have to come to a dead stop.  They can be underway.  The crane swings out a hook and the second aircraft crewmember grabs it and attaches it to the sling which is semi-permanently attached to the floatplane which is also underway and they then lift it out of the water and aboard the ship which carries it.

[Weaver]

The problem with all floatplane operations from non-carrier ships is the recovery. They have to land on the sea, which therefore has to be relatively calm, the ship has to come to a dead stop, which may or may not be tactically desirable, and they then have to spend a considerable amount of time carefully winching the plane on board. Autogyros avoid all of this, the only requirement being that the ship steam into wind for a few minutes. For a battleship, or especially a scouting cruiser, that's a significant advantage.

Skyhooks, that's the answer, Skyhooks.......

Which is basically what they use. Harold is a little bit wrong.  Yes, the Sea has to be relatively calm but the ships don't have to come to a dead stop.  They can be underway.  The crane swings out a hook and the second aircraft crewmember grabs it and attaches it to the sling which is semi-permanently attached to the floatplane which is also underway and they then lift it out of the water and aboard the ship which carries it.

Even if they could do it underway, I'll bet they couldn't do it at any kind of speed, or else the ship's wake would be bouncing the plane all over the place as it tried to get within reach of the crane.

[rickshaw]

The problem with all floatplane operations from non-carrier ships is the recovery. They have to land on the sea, which therefore has to be relatively calm, the ship has to come to a dead stop, which may or may not be tactically desirable, and they then have to spend a considerable amount of time carefully winching the plane on board. Autogyros avoid all of this, the only requirement being that the ship steam into wind for a few minutes. For a battleship, or especially a scouting cruiser, that's a significant advantage.

Skyhooks, that's the answer, Skyhooks.......

Which is basically what they use. Harold is a little bit wrong.  Yes, the Sea has to be relatively calm but the ships don't have to come to a dead stop.  They can be underway.  The crane swings out a hook and the second aircraft crewmember grabs it and attaches it to the sling which is semi-permanently attached to the floatplane which is also underway and they then lift it out of the water and aboard the ship which carries it.

Even if they could do it underway, I'll bet they couldn't do it at any kind of speed, or else the ship's wake would be bouncing the plane all over the place as it tried to get within reach of the crane.

Doesn't look to hard to me: