Bradleys and Warriors at Normandy?

[Nick]

Been reading John Birmingham's WW2.1 alt-hist series where an Allied fleet from 2040 goes back in time to 1943. It has me wondering how much use an M2 Bradley or Warrior APC would be on the European battlefields post D-Day...

How effective would a RARDEN auto-cannon or M242 25mm chaingun be against German armour of the 1940s? Would it penetrate a Panzer IV or a Pz.38?
There are claims of T-55 kills in Iraq in 1991 but would there be enough tungsten available for all the ammo in 1944?

Who wants to build a Sherman or Comet with a Bushmaster turret? 

[Steel Penguin]

a Bradley would have 2 TOW kills against pretty much anything.  the guns on them would still have the problem of having to close / sneak up on the bigger opponents, though thermal sights and smoke barrages would possibly enable that.
If there were multiples ( battle group size numbers)  it would get very messy, as the doctrine would tell,  and if here was any attached MBTs  they would fillet most positions ( especially once they are out of the Brocage )  where the 120mm main guns and thermal sights would mean that the Germans would be out ranged, and the normal camouflage would be far less effective, in addition to the more effective radios, optics, and the Chobham armour would make them pretty much invulnerable to gunfire,  modern vehicles would still suffer weight / bridge strength problems, but so did the bigger German stuff.
Ive seen ( somewhere ) the comparisons for gun / missile systems vs armour in a couple of RPG / wargames  ( im certain it was GDWs twilight 2000 2.2, Traveller the new era system as they shared the same engine )   its a sobering sight,  massive over penetration. 
the tungsten is one problem, as would be all other ammo types, P O L, and spares  ( can you imagine trying to do photo lithograph microchip etching with 40s tech)

An even bigger swing would be during the German race to the sea, Dunkirk period, against panzer 2,3+4s  they would be almost main gun matched,  and the knowledge of the crews would really pay off, use the stationary allied troops as the anvils and modern manoeuvre attacks as the hammer.

[JasonW]

The Bradley and Warrior cannon would make short work of most German armor up until the late PzKpfw III and IV's with side skirts, even then side/rear shots on most German WWII tanks would likely penetrate with AT ammo. Where they would really clean house is with the TOW missiles. Those would basically destroy anything the Germans could throw out there during the war. Additionally, infantry with Javelin AT missiles, Carl Gustav recoiless rifles and NLAW's would also destroy just about any German tank at that point in time.

It the amphib group had Abrams and Challengers with it they would make short work of ALL German WWII tanks. 1939 through to 1945. Wouldn't even be a contest. I was an Abrams tanker so can't speak to the Challenger but the service 120mm M829 SABOT rounds on the M1A1 Abrams have a depleted uranium core in the penetrator. It would go through any WWII tank armor period, regardless of nationality. On top of this, German tanks would have had to be very close range to even have a chance of penetrating frontal armor on an Abrams or Challenger. They would have to get close range side and rear shots to have any real effectiveness.

If there were AH-1W and AH-64 attack helicopters attached to the group (usually have them with a USMC amphib group) they would wipe the floor with German WWII armor using Hellfire, TOW2 and the 20mm/30mm cannons for top shots.

Simply put a joint US/UK amphibious assault group from today going back in time to 1944 would be a short term game changer but as pointed out over time, attrition due to mechanical failure, computer and electrical systems malfunctioning and ammo expenditure would take it's toll. Now, if some German Leopard 2A6's managed to go back in time at the same time as the Brits and Americans as well, then you'd have a real battle early on. Of course, they're our allies now, would they side with the Nazis?

The story possibilities are endless.

[kerick]

Who wants to build a Sherman or Comet with a Bushmaster turret? 

Bradley turret on a Israeli M51 hull. Fun build!
Build thread here.
http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,40981.0/highlight,another+sherman.html

You just have to imagine it in OD green with a big white star.
As pointed out by SP and JasonW, ammo and maitenance issues would be a major problem but that leaves the possibilities of merging vehicles and different equipment as different parts wear out.

[Captain Canada]

Great idea and an interesting scenerio/ topic ! Cheers !