Soviet GB Suggested Rules

[Weaver]

One thing I think we should keep in mind, there seem to be a few posters over the years that seem to propose wild ideas pushing the rules, but they seem to do so just to see what they can get away with for arguments sake.  A few didn't even seem interested in building in the first pace, just wanted to throw something out. I am not poking at anyone specific here, but please think of our poor moderators!    

On the flip side, if a debate starts about what a rule means or what it's boundaries are, then proposing hypotheticals that are up against, or even over, those boundaries is a good way to inform the discussion and establish what's in and what's out. The tricky bit in writing anything from a GB rule to a parliamentary law is dealing with the boundary conditions. Wherever you draw the line somebody's going to be just the right side of it, somebody near-identical to them is going to be just the wrong side of it, and somebody's going to end up feeling hard done by.....

[nighthunter]

Seeing if there is any update on the question I proposed's discussion...

[NARSES2]

Just to let you know that the Mod's are considering a couple of things and will get back to you. Sorry for the delay but we need to communicate across time differences.

Chris

[Weaver]

The Mods have been discussing the questions related to the scope of the GB and what should be allowed 'in' or 'out'. Essentially, the problem is caused by the inclusion of the Warsaw Pact and/or Soviet allies, since this gives scope for someone to write an alternative history that includes any country they like in that category, leading to things like Communist American F-15s in USAF colours that essentially have no link to the real USSR other than via the backstory. Our feeling is that there are two reaonable places to draw a line on this. Either we have an 'everything goes GB' which allows any link to Communism, no matter how slight, or we limit the scope to Communist Russia specifically, which is clearer but which excludes some real-world products of 'friends and fellow-travellers'.

To decide between these options, I'm going to post a poll to seek the views of potential participants. Note that neither choice would exclude anything that's already been approved on this thread.


The two alternative versions of rule 2 would look something like this:

The Anything Goes option:

    2)  You can enter any kit/figure/story in this GB which relates to the former Soviet Union of the Socialist Republics, the Warsaw Pact or any allied states in any historical or fictional setting you so choose. You can also use your fertile imaginations to dream up any other Soviet style state, empire etc you so wish as long as you clearly explain how the state is 'soviet' (i.e. Marxist/lenninist/Communist/etc..).

By way of example, ALL of the following would be okay under this rule:

a) A MiG-21 flown by the anyone, whether a 'communist' state or not

b) A Hunter flown by the Soviet Air Force

c) A Hunter flown by the RAF in an alternative universe where the UK has 'gone communist'

d) An L-39 Albatross flown by the Czech Air Force whilst Czechoslovakia was in the Warsaw Pact


The Soviet Russia Only option:

2)  You can enter any kit/figure/story in this GB which relates to the former Soviet Union of Socialist Republics, i.e Russia in it's Soviet era. The model must either represent a piece of hardware created in the USSR and used by anyone, or a piece of hardware created anywhere, but used by the USSR. You can use your fertile imaginations to dream up alternative histories, but the link between the model and Soviet Russia must be clear and explained.

By way of Example:

a) A MiG-21 flown by the RAF is okay (whether the UK has 'gone communist' or not) because it's Soviet Russian hardware.

b) A Hunter flown by the Soviet Air Force is okay (whether the UK has 'gone communist' or not), because it's in Soviet Russian service.

c) A Hunter flown by the RAF in an alternative universe where the UK has 'gone communist' is NOT okay, because it's neither Soviet Russian hardware, nor in Soviet Russian service.

d) An L-39 Albatross flown by communist Czechoslovakia is NOT okay, because it's neither Soviet Russian hardware, nor in Soviet Russian service.

I've set the poll to run until 5:30 PM (UK time) on Monday, to give a reasonable chance for people with different work/life patters to see it across a weekend and some weekdays. Please vote, and please spread the word.

[kerick]

I would like to say that which ever way the voting goes we could always have a GB in the future that covers whatever side does not prevail in this instance. I just don't want anyone to feel they have lost out forever.

[nighthunter]

Either way this vote goes, I technically win, lol

[Weaver]

Either way this vote goes, I technically win, lol

Funnily enough, we've just been having that conversation.... 

[Weaver]

What about a Soviet era Fighter, but read of the Communists winning the Civil War, the White Russians win. Thus the Russian deaigners carry on with designs in similar fashion as they did in real life? Such as a Russian Republic Polikarpov I-153?

Okay, the Mods have conferred and we've decided that this idea is okay, as long as the design of the aircraft (or whatever) started in Soviet Russia. In other words, if it's an artifact of the Communist state that's carried over into a new era (much like Tophe's idea) then it's okay, but if it's a new design started in 'White Russia' after the Communists have been defeated, then it's not okay. Okay? 

[nighthunter]

It's a Polikarpov I-153

[Weaver]

It's a Polikarpov I-153

Okay, but since you're re-writing history, you can change the date the civil war ends or design begins. In real life, the Civil War (at least the Reds vs Whites part) is generally agreed to have ended in 1923 at the latest and the design of the I-153 started in 1937. Thus:

1) If you have the Whites winning in 1923 and the I-153 starting in 1937, then it wouldn't be admissable since it would have no link to a soviet state: it would be purely a product of a non-communist state.

2) If you had the civil war ending later (1935 for instance), after the introduction of the I-16 (which introduced all the technology used on the I-153), and the design of the I-153 starting earlier than that (say 1934 when Polikarpov was released from prison), then it would be admissable since it was an artifact of a soviet state, even though it was subsequently used by a non-communist regime.

Note that point 2 is just an example of how you could change things: it's not an instruction to do it exactly like that.

[NARSES2]

I would like to say that which ever way the voting goes we could always have a GB in the future that covers whatever side does not prevail in this instance. I just don't want anyone to feel they have lost out forever.

Very much so. It can go in the next Poll

[strobez]

I voted for the Soviet Russia only option because I think between hardware and Soviet Russian service, there's a ton of room to play.  The "anything goes" option, to me, seems like we should just rename the GB as the "no name GB" because there really is no boundary. You could enter a dune buggy and say "it drove on a beach on the edge of the Baltic Sea this one time..." and you're good to go.

[major]

Sooooo! Which one do i select if I want to do a Mig-28? 

I've never entered a GB, but, I've a bit of time on my hands and sorely tempted, in order to actually get something finished!

[Weaver]

Sooooo! Which one do i select if I want to do a Mig-28? 

I've never entered a GB, but, I've a bit of time on my hands and sorely tempted, in order to actually get something finished!

Give us the outlines of the backstory and we'll tell you! Basically, where is it made and who's flying it?

[major]

Sooooo! Which one do i select if I want to do a Mig-28? 

I've never entered a GB, but, I've a bit of time on my hands and sorely tempted, in order to actually get something finished!

Give us the outlines of the backstory and we'll tell you! Basically, where is it made and who's flying it?

Well , I guess it's going to be built and operated by Soviet Russia. Quite fancy some of the demo and display team colours used by the Soviets!