Aerospatiale Puma/Super Puma/Cougar

[Weaver]

Sud Aviation had teamed with Vought to submit the SA.330 as one of the first-stage proposals for the US Army UTTAS, which eventually led to the Boeing and Sikorsky fly-off.

The main stumbling-block for the Puma in that competition was its height, being unable to fit into a C-130.  But Boeing compromised their helicopter by obsessing over that requirement, leading to problems during flight testing, whereas Sikorsky decided to ignore the requirement and just listed it as 'unattainable'.

Given that same flexibility, perhaps some point-of-divergence that necessitates more urgent replacement of UH-1s and at least an initial acquisition of Americanized-Pumas?  Perhaps later with T700s, would give performance like the Oryx.

However there is still a height difference between the Blackhawk and the Puma that affects it's carriage in larger aircraft (C-17, C-5?): the Blackhawk goes straight in put the Puma needs it's rotor head disassembling.

I recall reading an article on helicopter casevac where they were saying that the low ceiling on the Blackhawk causes major problems for the paramedic in that role because when the helo's packed with stretcher caes it makes it hard for him to get proper access to some of them.

[Weaver]

one of the problems with the puma is they are top heavy a reason maybe why the Fleet Air Arm wouldn't go for it.
However I like the puma and would love to have seen Puma being more widely used across various commonwealth countries like Australia, New Zealand and Canada replacing early model Hueys like the B & D. In a continuing (post 79) Rhodesia and in the RAF to replace the wessex in 72 Sqn in Northern Ireland and 60 Sqn as a UK home based sqn. maybe also replacing wessex in Cyprus and Hong Kong. They were good to work with in Belize.
I suspect the choice of Puma was based allot on the experience of the RAF and FAA helicopter forces in Borneo where capacity was an issue.

Super Pumas/Cougars are used on ships by a number of other navies though.

[Weaver]

Here's a thought: in real life, the RAF/MoD/Govt had endless arguments about a Puma replacement before eventually deciding to virtually rebuild the whole fleet to 'semi-Cougar' standard in the 2000s. How about as an alternative, they'd started buying small batches of Cougars in the mid 1990s and then gradually replacing the oldest Pumas with them on a squadron-by-squadron basis? That way the cost would be spread out and the introduction of new aircraft would match the retirement rate of old ones.

[PR19_Kit]

How about as an alternative, they'd started buying small batches of Cougars in the mid 1990s and then gradually replacing the oldest Pumas with them on a squadron-by-squadron basis? That way the cost would be spread out and the introduction of new aircraft would match the retirement rate of old ones.

Now stop being silly, that's FAR too practical and sensible an idea for the RAF/Mod/Govt to even think about! 

[NARSES2]

How about as an alternative, they'd started buying small batches of Cougars in the mid 1990s and then gradually replacing the oldest Pumas with them on a squadron-by-squadron basis? That way the cost would be spread out and the introduction of new aircraft would match the retirement rate of old ones.

Now stop being silly, that's FAR too practical and sensible an idea for the RAF/Mod/Govt to even think about! 

Beat me to it Kit. Idea's like that would get you drummed out of The Senior Civil Service Club 

[DarrenP2]

Here's a thought: in real life, the RAF/MoD/Govt had endless arguments about a Puma replacement before eventually deciding to virtually rebuild the whole fleet to 'semi-Cougar' standard in the 2000s. How about as an alternative, they'd started buying small batches of Cougars in the mid 1990s and then gradually replacing the oldest Pumas with them on a squadron-by-squadron basis? That way the cost would be spread out and the introduction of new aircraft would match the retirement rate of old ones.

Cougar was what the RAF originally wanted when the govt ordered merlin for them hence some of the ill feeling towards them.

[DarrenP2]

I recall reading an article on helicopter casevac where they were saying that the low ceiling on the Blackhawk causes major problems for the paramedic in that role because when the helo's packed with stretcher caes it makes it hard for him to get proper access to some of them.

the rescue hawks used by the US they tend to work on floor but the medivac versions with the stretcher fit are only useful for transporting stable casualties as the space between stretchers makes it nearly impossible to do anything more than the basics.
Puma stretcher fit is interesting though quite high of ground to lift a stretcher on.

did speak to a us army medical officer who specalised in helecopter Aeromed he said one of the big advantages of the Huey over the blackhawk was the NATO standard stretcher sat on the floor across the helicopter with the doors closed. The blackhawk you had to have the doors open

[PR19_Kit]

I recall reading an article on helicopter casevac where they were saying that the low ceiling on the Blackhawk causes major problems for the paramedic in that role because when the helo's packed with stretcher caes it makes it hard for him to get proper access to some of them.

They obviously never had to do casevac duties in a Scout or a Wasp, where the casualty's head was stuck outboard in a bulge on one side and his/her feet in a similar bulge on the other! Plus there was naff all room for an attendant behind the crew seats at all!

[DarrenP2]

I recall reading an article on helicopter casevac where they were saying that the low ceiling on the Blackhawk causes major problems for the paramedic in that role because when the helo's packed with stretcher caes it makes it hard for him to get proper access to some of them.

They obviously never had to do casevac duties in a Scout or a Wasp, where the casualty's head was stuck outboard in a bulge on one side and his/her feet in a similar bulge on the other! Plus there was naff all room for an attendant behind the crew seats at all!

ever seen the gazelle in casevac role? Was always told the attendent in wasp/scout was meant to occupy one of the crew seats reversed and it be single pilot operation.

[DarrenP2]

is the super puma wider than the puma?

[MAD]

Sud Aviation had teamed with Vought to submit the SA.330 as one of the first-stage proposals for the US Army UTTAS, which eventually led to the Boeing and Sikorsky fly-off.

So this submission was 'real world' AS.12?
As I cant find anything pertaining to Puma in the UTTAS competition 

MAD

[jcf]

UTTAS
http://www.dtic.mil/get-tr-doc/pdf?AD=AD0765438

[MAD]

Thank you joncarrfarrelly

MAD

[zenrat]

UTTAS
http://www.dtic.mil/get-tr-doc/pdf?AD=AD0765438

Wow.  That summary on page 4 after the title is a doozy.  I read it out to Mrs z (who is used to government documents) and even she couldn't tell me what it was about.

[Thorvic]

is the super puma wider than the puma?

No its just a stretched fuselage from what I recall.