Saracen 7

[JayBee]

This is my attempt to break out of the Mojo killing fugue that I was in with the Soviet GB.

I had an unfinished JBModels (later AIRFIX) Saracen APC and I had the idea of up-gunning it.
So I asked on here if anyone had the parts for the turrey and 30mm Rarden cannon from the AIRFIX Scorpion tank kit.
Weaver, wonderfully came to the rescue and provided all the bits that I needed .

The idea is that at a certain point in time a certain user of the Saracen APC asked Alvis if they could up-gun the Saracens that they had in service with the 30mm Rarden canon.
The fitting of the turret of the Scimitar CVR(T) was the preferred idea and so it went ahead.

These first two photos show initial work for this model.
As far as the turret goes it is essentially OOB with little changes.
The work on the hull requires more than I had hoped for. At first my hopes were that I could just put the turret on top of the existing hull, but that proved to be too narrow. So I have had to sand away the raised detil on the hull and glue on a new base-plate for the turret.

[Weaver]

I think it'll look good. I've tried the Scimitar turret on a Saladin chassis and it looks lost, while the similar turret on the 4x4 Fox looks top-heavy. The Saracen's made of fairly thin welded plate, so adding a big barbette to it wouldn't be unreasonably difficult.

[rickshaw]

Having seen a Saracen in action, admittedly a "wreck" which one Field Squadron used as a "recovery aide" which was drivable (just!) on roads only, doing skid turns.  It always struck me as being a tad copy heavy.  Now, if the Fox was top heavy, I think the Saracen, which was taller would be even worse.   Adding a Scorpion turret (which is heavier than the Fox turret) that high up would lead to problems.   You mention the turret looked "lost" on top of a Saladin but it would be lower down and the weight of the hull would counterbalance the weight of the turret rather well.  If the user insists on the Saracen, I think they'll need to accept restrictions on where it can be used.   If they cut down the Saracen hull, most of that could be cured.

[Dizzyfugu]

Mounting turrets on "something else" also has othter technical limits. It's not only about the weight (I'd assime that the Scorpion turret is aluminum and rel. light? But the high Saracen body AND the narrow track will cretainly make any sharp turn a risky thing!), there are also necessities concerning the ring bearing that carries the turret and distributes the weight over the hull. It cannot be too narrow, and just from a glance I'd say that the Scorpion/Saracen combo in its original form (as depicted) won't work and just looks goofy. The mount needs to be wider, so the hull base has to grow in width. Had this recently when I tried to mount a Coelian turret (for a Panther) on a Panzer IV: it does not work, despite initial different personal impression!

IMHO, the only way to save this one is to widen the "greenhouse" of the Saracen, e .g. with styrene sheet up to the fenders' width - and in the same wake the roof could also be slightly lowered, so that the turret some down a little?

[JayBee]

Here now are photos of the finished model and the "certain" user will be rather obvious.
After some A-4 Skyhawks escaped the invasion of Kuwait they ended up having the FREE KUWAIT titles added. So did the Armour in the same position.

[chrisonord]

I likes that, I erm I mean the Honduras army would like some of those 
Chris

[Weaver]

Nice one Jaybee, that looks really good! 

Mounting turrets on "something else" also has othter technical limits. It's not only about the weight (I'd assime that the Scorpion turret is aluminum and rel. light? But the high Saracen body AND the narrow track will cretainly make any sharp turn a risky thing!), there are also necessities concerning the ring bearing that carries the turret and distributes the weight over the hull. It cannot be too narrow, and just from a glance I'd say that the Scorpion/Saracen combo in its original form (as depicted) won't work and just looks goofy. The mount needs to be wider, so the hull base has to grow in width. Had this recently when I tried to mount a Coelian turret (for a Panther) on a Panzer IV: it does not work, despite initial different personal impression!

IMHO, the only way to save this one is to widen the "greenhouse" of the Saracen, e .g. with styrene sheet up to the fenders' width - and in the same wake the roof could also be slightly lowered, so that the turret some down a little?

The Saracen has the same width and length as the Saladin which carried a 76mm gun in a steel turret whose turret ring didn't exceed the width of the fighting compartment, i.e. it didn't overhang the mudguards. Jaybee's vehicle is carrying a lighter, lower-recoil gun in an aluminium turret on the same vehicle width, but somewhat higher up: I think it'd be a little top-heavy, but no more so than any number of other real-world vehicles. Check out the Canadian Grizzlies, which had a Scorpion turret on a 6x6 Mowag Piranaha chassis for an example.

EDIT: did a little research:

Saracen
Width: 2.54m
Height to hull top: 2m

V-150 Commando
Width: 2.26m
Height to hull top: 1.98m

The Saracen is thus only fractionally taller than the V-150 and is 20cm wider, yet the V-150 has been offered with two-man turrets with guns of up to 90mm, with far greater weights and recoils than the Scimitar turret. In fact, the Scorpion turret was offered as a V-150 option for years.

[NARSES2]

I like that Jim, nice one 

[Rick Lowe]

Yep, that's cool. 

[zenrat]

Free Kuwait with every gallon of four star.*

Good job.



*I just had a moment of doubt - I doubted whether many of todays young drivers would know what four star was...

[Rick Lowe]

Free Kuwait with every gallon of four star.*

Good job.



*I just had a moment of doubt - I doubted whether many of todays young drivers would know what four star was...

Showing you age there, Fred?! 

Mind you I can't talk, since I got the reference... 

[Weaver]

More to the point, I think anyone under 30 would be amazed at the idea that petrol ever came with free gifts...

[zenrat]

My dad was an enthusiastic collector of the drinks glasses.  They would give away a particular type and then when he had four they would change.  Of course there are five in our family.
I do have somewhere complete sets of either Esso or BP commemorative "coins" on collector cards.  Space Exploration and Vintage Cars IIRC.

[TallEng]

Free Kuwait with every gallon of four star.*

Good job.



*I just had a moment of doubt - I doubted whether many of todays young drivers would know what four star was...

its also possible they may struggle with 'Gallons' as  petrol is sold in Litres in the U.K. now,
and of course Europe (although our American cousins should be ok)

Regards
Keith

[PR19_Kit]

.....its also possible they may struggle with 'Gallons' as  petrol is sold in Litres in the U.K. now,
and of course Europe (although our American cousins should be ok)

Except US gallons are around 20% smaller than UK ones.....