The Enemy's Engines

[Scotaidh]

I think everyone knows about the captured Spitfire that was re-engined with a DB605, and I know some of us do engine swaps as casually as they change their socks, but has that ever been a theme?

If not, I think it's about time.   

I've heard a lot of folks say that if the Whirlwind'd had Merlins, it'd have been perfect.  Maybe I'm weird - I wonder how it'd have done with DB605s.  (It's one of my planned whifs.)

Mosquito with German engines?

Hurricane with the engine from the FW 190D?

Me 110 with Griffons?

Zero-sen with one of "our" radials?

Thoughts, comments?

[PR19_Kit]

Cracking idea for a Group build, anything you like so long as it has one of the other side's engines. 

And Mig 21s with J-79s can't enter, you cant see the difference with a jet!

[Medjoe]

Although I can't procure the basic supplies for the idea, I explore them via drawing instead. Can take just as much research as a 3D whif

Seems it's popular to stick German engines elsewhere, as evidence earlier and myself included!

For the reverse, how about an Allison or Merlin-powered Me410? I think the airframe is quite accommodating for a diverse number of engines, be they piston or radial. Turbocharger optional. And with various degrees of aesthetic-ness

Also on the note of swapped foreign engines, I have drawn up two re-engined IAR 80s. Historically they all used the Gnome-Rhône 14K or a local derivative produced by IAR. But I thought it would be an interesting thought experiment to swap them for another radial, the BMW 801, or a more radical change, using a Daimler-Benz design like the DB-601 or 605. I can link the drawings if anyone is interested in it and has some spare IARs around

edit: welp, misread the topic, I'll be saving up the previous idea for another time 

[Snowtrooper]

Considering that in 1943 Wright R-1820 Cyclones and P&W R-1830's were falling at an alarming rate on German heads (in the form of B-17's and B-24's), how about putting one on He 111 or Stuka? The power output would be about the same and spare parts would probably be easier to come by than for Jumo 211

Though, switch from inline to radial might ruin the aerodynamics. But Condor had radials to begin with, as did Me 323, He 115, and Ar 196. Or how about a twin-engined Ju 52?

[scooter]

Cracking idea for a Group build, anything you like so long as it has one of the other side's engines. 

And Mig 21s with J-79s can't enter, you cant see the difference with a jet!

How 'bout an Antonov An-72/74 with RB211s?

[PR19_Kit]

Cracking idea for a Group build, anything you like so long as it has one of the other side's engines. 

And Mig 21s with J-79s can't enter, you cant see the difference with a jet!

How 'bout an Antonov An-72/74 with RB211s?

Quite apart from being SERIOUSLY overpowered  the only visual difference would be much larger nacelles.

[Medjoe]

Considering that in 1943 Wright R-1820 Cyclones and P&W R-1830's were falling at an alarming rate on German heads (in the form of B-17's and B-24's), how about putting one on He 111 or Stuka? The power output would be about the same and spare parts would probably be easier to come by than for Jumo 211

Though, switch from inline to radial might ruin the aerodynamics. But Condor had radials to begin with, as did Me 323, He 115, and Ar 196. Or how about a twin-engined Ju 52?

For sure, aerodynamics would be a massive change, one ought to ask if such re-motorization efforts might not be counterproductive in some cases, despite the original intent. In theory, inlines are much sleeker, and would overall have less drag, but I must admit that I haven't seen too much detail on this in my aerodynamics course

Funny that you mention something along a Ju 52/2m, it's rather interesting that there are 1m and 3m versions but not a single 2m to be found! Of course, it wouldn't be necessarily be the enemy's engines, but there was a lot of licensing from British and French aero engines prior to the breakout of WW2. I was doing a bit of research into the topic not long ago. I think it would be an interesting concept, both in civilian (something like the DeutschC-3 as a widespread airliner and cargo aircraft ) and military, namely bombing. The whole front area would be well suited for a nice glass nose for a bombardier. I was also thinking for seeing perhaps Italian service, borrowing elements from the Caproni bombers for instance, or maybe the hunched cockpit of the SM.79, or maybe something a bit more gnarly-looking like a Blenheim Mk IV nose...

The main issue regarding this topic was finding an engine suited for the job. Unfortunately I could not find a German 9-cylinder radial design (to respect the current size) with an equivalent power output, assuming we want both engines to produce enough HP as the three BMW 132s. I'm still looking for a better candidate. I was considering something along the lines of an imported Bristol Pegasus, that was subsequently improved locally to achieve around 1,100 HP each, or outright captured and used as such. It may or may not be a stretch depending on the given leeway. The actual engine certainly achieved close to those numbers in Allied service, such as the XXII version with around 1,000 HP. The Ju 52 is definitely an interesting platform to try out a few things.

[jcf]

He 111 V-14 (D-ACBS) and He 111 V-15 (D-ADCF) transport prototypes had BMW 132 radials, an He 111K
(export version of He 111A) was converted to mount spare DC-3 Cyclones (R-1820) in 1943 in China.

[jcf]

A DB605 weighs well over five hundred pounds more than a Peregrine, and, except for height, is dimensionally larger.
The Whirlwind would need to have its rear fuselage lengthened.

Anyhow, according to the latest issue of The Aviation Historian, the Whirlwind's problem wasn't the Peregrine, it was
the propellers.
http://www.theaviationhistorian.com/

[tigercat]

Fairly  Swordfish with a Stukas Jumo 211

[zenrat]

Fairly  Swordfish with a Stukas Jumo 211

Nearly.
Swordfish with BMW 132.
Sea Shepherd Swordfish 9 by Fred Maillardet, on Flickr

And conversely Arado with Bristol Pegasus.
Frankston Skycabs Ar 196 006 by Fred Maillardet, on Flickr

[NARSES2]

They are both very, very nice 

[TomZ]

There are more real world examples of this:

- As said the Spitfire with DB601 engine
- But also the Bf-109V1, Ju-87, He-70 and He-112 with a RR Kerstrel
- A FW-190 with a Russian engine (M-82?)
- Early soviet jets using German jet engines
- A Ju-52 re-engined with P&W R-1690 Hornets in the USAAF designated C-79
- some German types using French Rhone engines.


But it would be fun to build some others...

- FW-190D with a RR Griffon
- Dewoitine D-520 with DB-601
- .....

TomZ

[tigercat]

Stuka with a Centaurus.

[perttime]

...
Mosquito with German engines?
...

That's a Might-Have-Been. Finnish VL had a project to reverse engineer Mosquito B IV and put DB 605s on it. Project name was Vihuri, which was later used for a two seat fighter trainer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valmet_Vihuri#Notes

There are more real world examples of this:
...

Morane-Saulnier M.S.406 with Klimov M-105P engines, instead of Hispano-Suiza 12Y-31 was a somewhat successful conversion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morane-Saulnier_M.S.406#M.C3.B6rk.C3.B6-Morane