No MiG: impact on Soviet aviation?

[chrisonord]

The Nene-powered MiG-15 rival was the earlier La-168 which flew-off well against the MiG but was scuppered by complex construction.

Could its construction have been streamlined? Or could it have been put into mass production regardless?

The Nene-powered MiG-15 rival was the earlier La-168 which flew-off well against the MiG but was scuppered by complex construction.

Could its construction have been streamlined? Or could it have been put into mass production regardless?

That's the sort of question I'd have expected from someone else that used to be on here a lot..............................

Shhhhhhhhhhhhh, she'll hear you...

I'm glad someone got it. 

I knew exactly who you meant ok Kit, I never saw any models built by her, but her pressing of members buttons, was par excellence.🙊

[PR19_Kit]

The Nene-powered MiG-15 rival was the earlier La-168 which flew-off well against the MiG but was scuppered by complex construction.

Could its construction have been streamlined? Or could it have been put into mass production regardless?

The Nene-powered MiG-15 rival was the earlier La-168 which flew-off well against the MiG but was scuppered by complex construction.

Could its construction have been streamlined? Or could it have been put into mass production regardless?

That's the sort of question I'd have expected from someone else that used to be on here a lot..............................

Shhhhhhhhhhhhh, she'll hear you...

I'm glad someone got it. 

I knew exactly who you meant ok Kit, I never saw any models built by her, but her pressing of members buttons, was par excellence.🙊

Neither did anyone else............

[Knightflyer]

s the late great Dick Emery might have said ......"Ohhhhh, Sir, You are awful, but I do like you!" 

[chrisonord]

s the late great Dick Emery might have said ......"Ohhhhh, Sir, You are awful, but I do like you!" 

🤓🤔😉

[zenrat]

All I ever see from her now is "You are Ignoring this user".

[Lrrr]

going further into the future from some set date in the past...

It sounds like Mikoyan was the perfect pick for the Soviet doctrine of simplicity and quantity over quality.  Had there been no Mikoyan, would they have gone with slightly more complicated (advanced?) designs as the next choice since frankly they wouldn't have known any better, there not being an option?

Tu-148 instead of MiG-25
Tu-148M or revised version instead of MiG-31
Su-15 in greater quantities instead of MiG-23
Su-27 in greater quantities instead of MiG-29
Su-25 in greater quantities instead of MiG-27

or would Lavochkin or Yakolev step up and basically build a Mig-21, 23, 27, 25, 31, 29 equivalent due to tight requirements?  My guess is the latter. 

"Soviets don't take a dump without a plan, son"

[Lrrr]

Is missile development also a part of this WHIF? 

No Raduga might be an even bigger impact.  There were a lot of airframes designed in the USSR: some large fighters (I highlighted a few) and some small and practical (many of them MiGs), but their standoff capability with Air-Surface missiles was largely monopolized by Gurevich's OKB.

US Navy would have breathed a larger sigh of relief with no Raduga than no MiG.  Would have taken the claws out of Long-Range and Naval Aviation for the Soviets.

[tahsin]

Mikoyan did not prefer simplicity nor there was much choice in the matter. 22 Million square kilometers and surrounded from all sides makes it kind of imperative that there has to be an awful lot equipment. I even have a lingering suspicion that Americans would do even worse if the situation was reversed. It's just that politics made it easier to concentrate. One gets interceptors one gets fighters. Nor Sukhoi designs were that much complex over their Mikoyan counterparts. 

[Lrrr]

Mikoyan did not prefer simplicity nor there was much choice in the matter. 22 Million square kilometers and surrounded from all sides makes it kind of imperative that there has to be an awful lot equipment. I even have a lingering suspicion that Americans would do even worse if the situation was reversed. It's just that politics made it easier to concentrate. One gets interceptors one gets fighters. Nor Sukhoi designs were that much complex over their Mikoyan counterparts.

Not necessarily saying it is a preference by MiG, but they did win big with their lighter, smaller-radar designs as compared to other options. They adapted best to the big-tender Soviet requirements.  I'm sticking within the bounds of 'No MiG' WHIF, not that if the USSR didn't have a bigger pocketbook, would MiG have risen to that challenge instead and won the most tenders regardless.

Compared to MiG-29, Su-27 has larger radar, greater range, longer-range AAMs, etc and so on.  No real loss of maneuverability even at 55,000-70,0000 lbs TOW.   

The same argument applies to MiG-25 over Tu-148.  Tupolev was the incumbent long-range interceptor and their proposed replacement was larger, 2-person tandem, internal missile bay, larger radar, greater range, etc. than MiG-25.  Mikoyan develops an advanced aircraft but  Tu-148 would have been something of a cross between a Tu-22M Backfire and an F-14 Tomcat.  Or more or less a MiG-31 general mission plan (1979) with MiG-25 timing (1965). 

For ground attack, Su-25 lives on while MiG-27 has been largely retired from Russia and Ukraine.




Tu-148 - ultra-long-range interceptor ; competitor to MiG-25


Modification    Tu-148
Wingspan, m    25.60
Length m    32.50
Height, m    7.50
empty aircraft    
maximum take-off    60000
fuel    21800
engine's type    2-36 TRD RD41
Link unforced, kgf    X 2 16000
Maximum speed km / h    2500
Practical range, km    4600
Combat range, km    1656
Practical ceiling, m    17000
Crew    2
Armament:    4-33 By URVV


source: Подробнее на: http://en.avia.pro/blog/tu-148

[tahsin]

Debating can be tough with so many options, but I would probably say Mikoyan, due to political influence, was given the all important mission of defending against B-29s, for the sake discussion, in 1939. Made most of the loot of 1946 with the MiG-15. But Stalin's purges hurt the Soviet capacity so much and the increasing complexity of systems required competition. Hence Sukhoi always made the heavy variant of the same thing and MiG the light. It was only the fall of the Soviet Union that propelled the Flanker to the top and it's also deserved. Luckily for the Russians. Similarly Mikoyan could have the Su-27 bracket for itself. Pushing Sukhoi to build an air to air Fullback(?) in the 1970/80s when the choices were made.

For Foxbat, it's always "nice" to check whether really the MiG-25 is the Object 85, while MiG-31 is the 84? One should really write up whether the Russians had the brains to imagine electronically scanning antennas, Mach 3, extreme long range and missiles as USAF/USN were fumbling with the F-111.

[Lrrr]

Impressive of an achievement the MiG-25 was, its ability to take out even the B-70 Valkyrie are questionable had the US gone that way.  There was no way for a MiG-25 to get a missile close to a Mach3 bomber/reconnaissance aircraft, since with missiles it wasn't nearly as fast and the range suffered tremendously. 

With the HUGE missiles mounted, it couldn't even reach Mach 2.5 and its combat range at that speed was poor (I've seen 300km quoted).

It would be very risky to rely on MiG-25s launching from a handful of far-East bases and being directly in the path of a B-70 in order to fire head-on at 60km, with missiles climbing to their target.  Just the % chance of being on the right interception route without any B-70 deviation of path is too low.  High probability of several enemies getting through.  1 chance for a shot in a very narrow window and then range is spent. 

Even skeptical with the missile-armed range against B-52s.  In order to cover a wide enough area, would have to stay subsonic.  At which point... why have Mach3 capability?   It wouldn't be outrunning the BUFF. 

Though in the gap before the F-15, the MiG-25 oddly enough did very well against the F-4 Phantom in the 'fire and retreat' method.  So as a 'frontal interceptor' it could have helped a little in a ground war in West/Central Europe shooting down AWACs and F-4s.  Once F-15 hit the scenes, that is highly doubtful though. 

[tahsin]

The PVO way of single interceptors were on the way out after December of 72, that's sort of why Russians bit the bullet and started on the 31, datalinks and all that. Russians do have really strange visions of what enemy planes can do afterall.