Eureka!!!!

[nev]

yep, it finally came to me last night how I could do my hoped-for natural metal TSR2.

I was thinking more on my anglo-french TSR2 development timeline and I figured there would be an agreement between Britian and France that each would promote the aircraft in their sphere of influence, leading to a possibility of perhaps a sale of TSR2s by France to Israel.

Threatened by this, the Saudis would in turn want their own long range strike aircraft, thus buying TSR2s from Britain and they would of course be painted......in natural metal!!!    

Anyone got any Saudi decals in 72nd?   :ar:  

[Hobbes]

The NMF could be explained by the Saudis leaving the aircraft parked outside. Due to the Arabic version of the Spanish "Mañana" the hangars weren't finished until two years after the TSR.2s arrived. The sandstorms quickly eroded the paint jobs, and the Saudis decided not to repaint them.

[Mike Wren]

thus buying TSR2s from Britain and they would of course be painted......in natural metal!!!    

Nev, how exactly do they paint planes in natural metal?  

anyway, Saudi ones sound good to me...

[nev]

Hobbes, Saudi Lightnings were delivered unpainted, so thats the NMF explained

Mike - yeah I know painted can't be natural metal, but planes have been painted silver/aluminium throughout history - including the Lightning on occasion

[Geoff_B]

I was thinking more on my anglo-french TSR2 development timeline and I figured there would be an agreement between Britian and France that each would promote the aircraft in their sphere of influence, leading to a possibility of perhaps a sale of TSR2s by France to Israel.

Threatened by this, the Saudis would in turn want their own long range strike aircraft, thus buying TSR2s from Britain and they would of course be painted......in natural metal!!!   

Anyone got any Saudi decals in 72nd?

Hi Nev

How about the French selling Isreali the Mirage IV so Saudo take the TSR-2 to counter it and go with their Lightnings.

As for decals i may have some from the Hasegawa Tornado GR-1, Revell did release their earlier GR-1 with Saudi colours and you may find em on a Gulf war set.

Cheers

Geoff B B)

(Still the Matchbox Lightning T-55 with Saudi & Kuwati markings)

[elmayerle]

IPMS/USA had a decal sheet a while back for "different" F-15's.  I bought several for the decals of the prototypes McAir used as development birds (the splendid white with red or blue trim (though the pics of one appear to show purple trim).  I probably have the Saudi markings available.

You know, if Lockheed's submission of the TSR.2 to SOR.183 had won, I can see some of their development birds getting painted in similar trims.  There might be some possibilities there.

[nev]

Thanks guys, when it comes time for the TSR2 to be released then I'll ask about having them Saudi Roundels    

[TsrJoe]

erm re Lee's insight...it just so happens that F.111 was on Pakistan's 'shopping list' back in the 70's, an interesting scenario reminiscent of B.57 and Canberra...F.111 and TSR.2...cool...now thatd be a story worth writing up...chuckle...?  

happy whatiffing, cheers joe

[Hobbes]

I can't see the US aircraft industry allowing the French to sell anything to the Isrealis

Remember when France built some naval vessels (corvettes?) for the Israelis, but at the last moment got cold feet and wouldn't hand them over? The Israelis 'stole' them anyway.
Imagine the Israelis getting their hands on a squadron or two of TSR.2s this way...

[elmayerle]

I can't see the US aircraft industry allowing the French to sell anything to the Isrealis

Remember when France built some naval vessels (corvettes?) for the Israelis, but at the last moment got cold feet and wouldn't hand them over? The Israelis 'stole' them anyway.
Imagine the Israelis getting their hands on a squadron or two of TSR.2s this way...

Or how the Israelis got all the plans for the Mirage III and the ATAR engine in it?

[nev]

I can't see the US aircraft industry allowing the French to sell anything to the Isrealis - maybe in the 50s but not later - and I don't think Dassault would have been too happy either.  More likely Isreal would get the US Lockheed built TSR2 (FB112 anyone?).  I also think that the US would block the sales of anything as advanced as TSR2 to any nation that could threaten their isreali buddies, especially considering the Jewish lobby in the States.

IIRC the French only stopped selling weapons to the Israelis after 1967, it was only after then that the US began selling/giving their weapons systems to Israel.  Up till 67 most of the jet combat aircraft of the Israelis were French - Ouregan, Super Mystere, Mirage.

And I don't care if the US don't like us selling stuff to Saudi, they can't stop us!     I will have my silver TSR2!!    

[Geoff_B]

The US arms industry is very aggressive in it's sales tactics - witness most NATO countries buying Starfighter - and if there's even a sniff of an order, they're there. They might not be able to stop us selling anything, but they'll bribe their way in (as with Starfighter) and undercut us. Do not underestimate the sheer greed and naked agression of the US Political-Military-Industrial cartel.

..

You mean like this Wooksta ?

A tarnished reputation

Seems topical with the comment, the Starfighter case really shows how truely the whole thingh was as the aircraft was not meant for the role it was to be used as within Nato, as an  intercepoter is was Ok but strike nah, if the USAF didn't use it as such then only a bung could have made others buy it for that purpose. Unfortunately the alternative most likely at the time would probably been the Mirage III developed as a multirole aircaft as the UK had alreadt shot it self in the foot in 1957 by cancelling most aircraft programes including the SR177, F155T and the Hawker P1121 which probably been better suited for the role.

Speaking of the 1121 some tout it as Britains answer to the Phantom in terms of performance and capability. Not sure the 1121 was quite an exact match but the later 1125 derived from the 1121 probably could have been a viable contender.

Cheers

Geoff B B)  

[Zen]

P1121?

That would be which one exactly?
Cetainly with mach 2.1+ speed and a ceiling over 58,000ft it was no slouch, versions had different engines so the ROA ('radius of action' a far more sueful figure than 'range') varied from 150nm to 600nm.

Well it would have been cheaper than a F4 to buy and operate for starters, and though it would carry less, it would be a neat competitor with a number of Russian aircraft.

That said EE did have offerings with the Lightning. LABS, auto attack, and a number of other already developed gear was available for it.

Seems the Netherlands bought Starfighters thanks to bribery BTW.

[Martin H]

Seems the Netherlands bought Starfighters thanks to bribery BTW.

Along with germany, belgium and denmark.

the only reason Lockheed gave for not selling em to the Uk (from an FBI interview with a Lockheed sale bod) was that the British civil servents incharge of procurement, were way to expencive to buy off, they just wernt willing to risk their chance for their Knighthood. Those three little words infront of your name and the tap on the shoulder with a sword is one of the best anti corruption systems going...and the cheapest.

[nev]

The US not being able to stop us selling anything? Hmmm.... When BAC did the "magic carpet" deal in the 60s, the US arms industry was conspicuous by it's very absence. Was it because they were giving us a clear run so that the UK would have the money to pay for the F111Ks that Healey had so stupidly ordered? And to repay the IMF loan that as the US was co-signatory on they had the very pressure and leverage they needed to force us to cancel TSR2?

All true, but if we're building TSR2s, then we're already assuming that the TSR2 wasn't cancelled, and we're all building export TSR2s - you yourself said you want to do at least 3.  All that foreign currency from export sales sure is nice....and extra cash from the oil rich Saudis for some nice long range strike aircraft giving them the potential to hit Israel - who needs IMF loans when you can have Saudi oil money!

The US arms industry is very aggressive in it's sales tactics - witness most NATO countries buying Starfighter - and if there's even a sniff of an order, they're there. They might not be able to stop us selling anything, but they'll bribe their way in (as with Starfighter) and undercut us. Do not underestimate the sheer greed and naked agression of the US Political-Military-Industrial cartel.

Oh, I know all about US marketing prowess.  You only have to go to America to witness the level of competition for every consumer dollar. Its one reason why things are so cheap in the US - marketing and advertising is very cut-throat over there.  In terms of marketing aircraft they were decades ahead of us.  If only we had pushed the Lightning and the Buccaneer and others as well as the US did with their products.  Instead of aggresively marketing our world class products, our own government undermined them, and our companies were happy if they sold a few to a couple of commonwealth countries and that was about it.  Sure there was a level of corruption with the F-104 especially, but that corruption is still there, just its all now given a veneer of legality.  Why bribe someone when you can hire them as a "consultant" ?  And lets not even go near "industrial offsets".  And we still lag the US in marketing, Eurofighter has been criticised for years in the aviation press for the way they've gone about marketing the Typhoon.  I'd rather criticise our own governments and aviation companies for the poor way they've handled marketing and export that criticise the Americans for doing a better job than us.

But even then the US still doesn't have its own way.  The Lynx and the Hawk are 2 examples that have had tremendous export success - even traditional US customers have bought both of these, so we can (occasionally) get it done.  And in the 60s the Saudis were traditionally in "our" sphere of influence.  Like I said, the prospect of a long range low level strike aircraft to threaten Israel with would make the Saudis giddy, and there's no way America are going to undercut us with another plane of their own, the Pro-Israel lobby certainly wouldn't allow an export of the F-111or A-6 or F-105 there.  And those nice Saudis would offset any monetary threats the US made to us.  IMF?  we don't need no stinkin IMF!!!  And lets not forget the Saudis are the only export customer for the Tornado - a sale that wasn't stopped or undercut by the US.

Nev, the only way I can see a NMF (or painted aluminium) TSR2 is one used in a film - such as the NMF F16 posing as a Eurofighter in 2 seconds of Independence Day. Or one being stripped and repainted, but even then, it would have scruffy hand sprayed primer over metal - there's a nice nice pic of a Lightning F6 in said primer scheme. Didn't I do a TSR2 in a similar scheme?

I know you've used Lightnings as an example, but when the Saudi/Kuwaiti ones were delivered the RAF Lightnings were still in NMF - camo didn't come in until 1974 and that was in Germany with the Lightning F2As. Unsure when the RAF ones in the UK went camo, probably mid-late70s.

Yes, but its very hot in Saudi, and all that sensitive electronics is much better protected from the heat by a nice shiny metal finish which reflects the Sun

Anyway, Leigh is sending me some Saudi decals and its MFM!!