F-105 in RAF service mid 1960's

[chrisonord]

This should get the experts among us stoking the saw dust.
I have a hobby crap CF-105 Arrow in the stash, it was going to get made in to another SHADO interceptor, but I thought why not make it in to something well outside my themed builds. Tha alternative universe puts the CF-105 arrow in to production and becomes the success it rightly should have been putting all other western aircraft of the time frame to shame. Meanwhile over the pond poor old Blighty is still scratching its polished bonces over what design to put forward as the desperately needed Russian  bomber interceptor. Nothing seemed to please the powers that be and nothing got further than the sales brochure. That was until the then Prime minister got a bit miffed and scoffed at the RAF chief of staff and said, well what about the bloody arrow our Canadian cousins have successfully built? After a bit of a rattling of medals and sipping of earl grey, they decided to give said arrow a coat of looking at.
The build I want to make will need authentic early 1960's markings and colour scheme, as well as air to air missiles of that era, most probably red top. The aircraft will be U.K based too so will need a squadron of said basing. What I need to know is, can I get hold of decals that would do the job, in 1/72nd scale, and also missiles to mount on the thing. Also part of the whiff bit is that the aircraft have their weapons bays omitted and a fuel tank put in its place, so weapons would be on four hardpoints on the wings. I think I would also need pylons and possibly fuel tanks of that era too. Not asking too much am ? The aircraft would have been in service since the late 50's, and my version would be an in service during the early to mid sixties
Cheers
Chris.

[PR19_Kit]

Colin Freightdog does a lovely pair of resin Red Tops, I bought a set at Telford. Almost any sheet of Lightning decals should give you some squadron markings too, Modeldecal did 4-5 sets of the period and they're still available via eBay.

It should look AWESOME, I can hardly wait to see the result. 

[chrisonord]

Colin Freightdog does a lovely pair of resin Red Tops, I bought a set at Telford. Almost any sheet of Lightning decals should give you some squadron markings too, Modeldecal did 4-5 sets of the period and they're still available via eBay.

It should look AWESOME, I can hardly wait to see the result. 

Cheers Kit, I will look in to those, I am thinking of painting the arrow in the green grey over light grey camo, would this scheme have been in use during that time period? I am not keen on NMF, as it has to be done perfect to look right,and I am not too great at doing said scheme
Cheers
Chris

[chrisonord]

Another thought just occured to me, must be the morphine, Spey engines as an upgrade to give the aircraft a longer life span. If I have the build time frame for around the mid sixties I could in theory fit a pair to the arrow, or would they be a bit of a downgrade power wise? Plus I would need to get hold of a pair of nozzles and see if they fit too.
Cheers
Chris

[Mossie]

Silver undersides are a possibility in the 50's.  If you go with light aircraft grey, it was a different shade to what it is now, Humbrol 64 is s good match, see this thread:
http://www.whatifmodellers.com/index.php/topic,19439.msg702791.html#msg702791

I've been thinking about squadrons for a fighter around the same period over the last few days.  As well as Lightning squadrons, almost any fighter squadron is possible in this period as the RAF was transitioning from 1st gen jets.  So Hunter, Javelin and even NF Meteors are fair game.

DH Gyron would have the grunt in your time period.  Spey might possibly be an option for later marks, if it could be scaled up.

[PR19_Kit]

The Dark Green/Dark Sea Grey over Medium Sea Grey scheme came in around the mid-50s, so you'd be OK with that.

Having said that, the Lightnings cam into service in 1961 and most of them were in NMF with diferent coloured fins and spines etc. all through the 60s. They tended to stay that way until the all over Dark Green F2As appeared in 1975 or so. It could be assumed that the RAF kept the NMF scheme on its QRA interceptors, but there's nothing to stop you using camo on your Arrows, this is WhiffWorld after all.

As for 'upgrading' to Speys, that'd NOT be a good idea, apart from the improved fuel consumption because the Spey was a turbofan. The production Arrow's engine was intended to be the mighty Orenda Iriqois that had a dry power of 19500 lb and 25000 in reheat, whereas the Spey had 12000 lb dry and 20500 in reheat.

[Old Wombat]

How about Speys as a late-life/life-extension modification when they went from being interceptors to being fast CAS?

[Weaver]

The UK actually placed, and then cancelled, an order for the CF-105 as an intermediate aircraft pending the F.155T.

Engine-wise, the most likely UK candidate would be the Olympus. I know the Gyron was the most powerful UK engine for a while in the 1950s, but it exhibited poor behaviour when run behind a P.1121 intake and the related Gyron Junior was also less-than-stellar. The Olympus, or possibly an afterburning Conway, would be the safer bet.

As well as Red Tops, another possibility might be Genies - the RAF wanted them for the Lightning but the UK nuclear program couldn't generate enough fissile material to spare any for defensive weapons at the time. In whiff-world, of course, you can change that. Genies might also then decide the colour scheme: anti-flash white with pastel roundels. A Buccaneer S.1 or 1/144th V-bomber sheet would be a source of the latter.

The other option for Missiles would be Red Hebe. As far as I know, nobody makes models of these, but they're big enough and simple enough that scratchbuilding them shouldn't be too fiddly, and you'd only need two, of course. Unfortunately you can't use Colin Freighdog's Red Dean set (for the Canberra) because Red Dean wasn't compatible with supersonic carriage (it's radome couldn't take the heating).

[chrisonord]

Cheers for all the replies, this is brilliant  Just for once I want to make something as real as possible more of a very nearly was than a whatif, colour scheme wise I like the look of the arrow in the green grey camouflage scheme, as I remembered I had a picture of one in said scheme. I am thinking of two red tops, or two "improved " Blue Jay mark 6's, keeping the wiff alive with those, and possibly a pair or a single genie on the centre line of the fuselage. All fuel will be internal,as the former weapons bay will be a fuel tank. The aircrafts purpose will be to intercept Russian bombers as they enter European aerospace from U.K bases, and possibly Greenland. I have also thought of including a Single or pair of De Haviland Spectre junior rocket motors, as they have controllable thrust on them. These would be used once scrambled and at altitude,these should give the aircraft a Mach 2.5 dash/ interception speed. The weapons pylons will needs be very aerodynamic too so as to achieve that speed.
Chris

[Mossie]

I've done a little digging, the Rolls Royce RB.106 was slated for the Arrow in RAF service.  It was to be a direct slot-in replacement for the Avon, with 21,000lb thrust.  It would have easily fit in the space taken up by the development J75's.  Went the way of the Dodo in '57, apparently it was very promising for it's time.  The Fairey Delta III was to be powered by a scaled up version, the RB.122. 

There are some research aircraft designs in BSP Fighters that show it in low detail, also the recent RAF Secret Jets of Cold War Britain bookazine shows the RB.122 on the Delta III.  Basically the afterburner was contained in a shroud, similar to the Phantom's Spey and TSR.2's Olympus.

[sandiego89]

Sounds like a great idea and the green/gray would work well- also like the thought of a Genie. 

I do suggest avoiding the F-105 designation as my mind immediately to the "the" F-105, the Thud. 

[chrisonord]

Thanks for the info Mossie, I shall look in to that as an alternative power plant for sure. I think the aircraft will need a very British name whilst in RAF service, and also be license built by one of the aircraft establishments still around at the end of the 50's early 60's. Fairey ,Armstrong whitworth, possibly Saunders Roe, but leaning towards Fairey
Chris.

[jcf]

Why change the engines? The Orenda Iroquois was an advanced, and powerful design.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orenda_Iroquois

[PR19_Kit]

Why change the engines? The Orenda Iroquois was an advanced, and powerful design.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orenda_Iroquois

Exactly, I said that earlier in the thread.

Apart from the Gyron it had no competitors really.

[Mossie]

NIHS.

Also, if the RAF had gone with the Arrow (and the '57 white paper not happened), the RB.106 would have likely been the chosen engine for the CF.105 and the Orenda wouldn't have been developed.