Martin Baker Long Ranger NF.1

[kitnut617]

Thanks H,  I've got some of those F-84 tanks but the thing with them is they're the wrong shape to have the radar scanner in one of them. The scanners of the time had quite a big diameter and the kit tanks are way too skinny to have had a scanner in them. Also looked at some tanks from the F-80 kit, the ones that look like the ones I've got on but smaller. I'm going to add some drop tanks under the wings, I had thought about using the kit's tip tanks but I might just use the F-80 ones instead.

I pretty sure that had the MB5 gone into production, Sabre and Centaurus engines were to be an option for it, same as the Fury/Sea Fury, Tempest etc. That the prototype had a Griffon is because that was what was issued to them to use to get it flying.

[Old Wombat]

Mean lookin' motherplucker!

[The Wooksta!]

I pretty sure that had the MB5 gone into production, Sabre and Centaurus engines were to be an option for it, same as the Fury/Sea Fury, Tempest etc. That the prototype had a Griffon is because that was what was issued to them to use to get it flying.

Doubtful.  James Martin wanted the RR Griffon all along - the only reason the MB3 got the Sabre was because it was forced on them by the Ministry, with fatal results for Valentine Baker. Centaurus is possible - I've seen a drawing somewhere of a Centaurus MB, but can't remember if it's a bubbletop 3 or a 5.

[kitnut617]

I pretty sure that had the MB5 gone into production, Sabre and Centaurus engines were to be an option for it, same as the Fury/Sea Fury, Tempest etc. That the prototype had a Griffon is because that was what was issued to them to use to get it flying.

Doubtful.  James Martin wanted the RR Griffon all along - the only reason the MB3 got the Sabre was because it was forced on them by the Ministry, with fatal results for Valentine Baker. Centaurus is possible - I've seen a drawing somewhere of a Centaurus MB, but can't remember if it's a bubbletop 3 or a 5.

I don't think the Sabre was forced on them in the MB3, it was the engine that was supposed to be a game-changer. Typhoon got it at the same time and as history shows, it had a lot of issues in that aircraft too. Wasn't until Napier fixed the issues (by then the company was owned by English Electric who ordered all other development to stop and get it fixed) that the Sabre began to prove it's worth.  Like I've said before, the Griffon appears "lost" in the front of the MB5, and the Sabre cowling from a Tempest/Fury fits it very well.

[wuzak]

Martin may have vowed to never use a Sabre again.

For the MB3, I believe the first options were a Merlin (XX IIRC) then a Griffon. I believe a Merlin had been delivered to them, but somehow the MB3 ended up with the Sabre.

[kitnut617]

Interesting --- considering the size of the MB3 and MB5 the Merlin would have been even more 'lost' in the front end.  Like I've pointed out, manufacturers were being asked to develop fighters around the Sabre (Centaurus, Vulture as well) so I find that a bit weird that Martin would build a large fighter and then only put a Merlin in it.

[NARSES2]

I could see this hunting Polikarpov Pe-2 night-harrassers over Korea...

I can see it on night COIN duties as well, perhaps in Malaya ? Or maybe, just maybe over the Ho-Chi-Min trail ?

[wuzak]

Interesting --- considering the size of the MB3 and MB5 the Merlin would have been even more 'lost' in the front end.  Like I've pointed out, manufacturers were being asked to develop fighters around the Sabre (Centaurus, Vulture as well) so I find that a bit weird that Martin would build a large fighter and then only put a Merlin in it.

The MB3 was ordered as the F.18/39 in August 1940. The original powerplant was to be the Griffon, but the first was to fly with a Merlin, as the Griffon had yet to be flown in any aircraft (at the time of the specification). Martin-Baker ordered 3 Merlins in May 1939 and 3 Griffons 2 months later.

3 Merlin Xs were delivered in May 1940.

Given that Martin-Baker had 3 Merlins in hand, and Rolls-Royce engines were preferred, it seems it is a bit of a mystery as to why the MB3 ended up with the Sabre.

Data from Tony Buttler, British Experimental Combat Aircraft of WWII.

[kitnut617]

Thanks for that, I went and had a re-read of it. But it doesn't say it first flew with a Merlin either, it was the Sabre it first flew with. It says that the spec said to use a Merlin RM.2.SM first because the Griffon hadn't been flight tested. The RM.2.SM (Merlin XX) was only just over 1300 hp so not in the cards at all for production. But in the end the Sabre was fitted and the rest is history.  It also doesn't say that usage of the Sabre was a mystery, it says that Tony Buttler just hasn't found any info yet to why it was substituted.

[wuzak]

Thanks for that, I went and had a re-read of it. But it doesn't say it first flew with a Merlin either, it was the Sabre it first flew with. It says that the spec said to use a Merlin RM.2.SM first because the Griffon hadn't been flight tested. The RM.2.SM (Merlin XX) was only just over 1300 hp so not in the cards at all for production. But in the end the Sabre was fitted and the rest is history.  It also doesn't say that usage of the Sabre was a mystery, it says that Tony Buttler just hasn't found any info yet to why it was substituted.

Yes, worded that poorly.

The first prototype was planned to fly with the Merlin, but never did so.

[kitnut617]

Got a bit done Saturday, did another round of PSR and then on with some base paint so I can check to see what needs patching up.







And then finished the rear prop where I had to extend the rear end of the spinner and fill in the gaps in front of the blades.

[kitnut617]

But now I've decided to change it's scope of operations, now instead of being a long range night fighter, I'll have it as a long range night intruder.

So I got thinking what sort of load would it carry. Then I thought about something I've read about in the book Spitfire by Alfred Price. There's a photo in it that shows a Spiteful Mk.14 with a load of one 180 gal center tank and four Triplex rockets. These rockets were a bundle of three RP-3 3" rocket motors with a 7.5" artillery shell for a war head. I decided to have a go at making some.

These pics though are of my 'practice' run at it. I'll have to refine it for the ones I'll eventually put on the model, but I wanted to see how it would look. I will have to do it again anyway because the liquid glue I used collapsed one of the tubes I used and I've got the fins orientated wrong too.









Would anyone here know what the dimensions are of a 7.5" artillery shell, I've looked on the internet I can't even find information for a 7.5" shell

[Old Wombat]

The 7.2"/7.5" discrepancy may be attributable to an aircraft "expert" writing about an element of a subject beyond his field of knowledge (field artillery) or a typo.

I'm unaware of any allied artillery of 7.5" calibre but the British 7.2" howitzer was a common artillery piece & lots of ammunition would have been available; I'd go with that as your shell size.

Standard HE Shell Mk 3D
Length (less fuze): 35.07  inches (fuze probably added a couple of inches to the length)
Calibre radius head: 5/10
Body Diameter: 7.185  inches
Driving Band Diameter: 7.47 inches
Weight (incl fuze): 202 lbs
Explosive Weight: 28 lbs

http://nigelef.tripod.com/72inchsheet.htm

[kitnut617]

Perfect    thanks Guy.  I'd imagine that the 35.07" length includes the casing, wouldn't it ? I'm after the actual shell length. Mind you, would you have a picture of the whole thing, then I could scale it to find out the length of just the shell.

EDIT: just found a photo of the shells (albeit a model of them). 35" looks like the length of it after all, they have a separate bagged gun-powder charge. This changes things a bit and explains why the rocket looks so long in the book (it's a very dark photo which you can't quite tell where it ends)

[Old Wombat]

The only other option I can find for the warhead is from the US 7.2" Demolition Rocket (think Sherman calliope) but the Brit's tended to use their own artillery shells for this type of thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.2-Inch_Demolition_Rocket
http://michaelhiske.de/Allierte/USA/OrdnancePamphlets/OP1664/Volume01/Part02/Chapter05/Section04/Section04_13.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T34_Calliope

Plus, if the 7.2" air-launched rocket has a pointy nose, the demo rocket won't be it, as it has a flat nose.