Aggressor Aircraft

[Air21]

First off, I'm sure nobody is going to fault us for filling up a thread with our favorite aggressor schemes...

BUT I wanted to throw this up for a different reason, THIS ARTICLE over at the WarZone is an interesting read about one pilots experiences flying at and then instructing at the Naval Fighter Weapons School, TOP GUN.  About a quarter of the way into the article this bit caught my eye:

...the Rules of Engagement (ROE) were briefed and concluded by one crew member from each type of aircraft briefing the stall/spin recovery procedures for their type.  The types of aircraft going through the class and those flown by the instructors were recited, followed by the Air Force pilots reciting F-15 and F-16 procedures, and the others briefing P-51 and F-86 procedures.

And then,

Unlike all of our previous 1 V 1s, we had no idea what type of aircraft we would be fighting, and since these engagements would start with an intercept, we would not know until the merge.

Now in the article the encounter after this briefing ended up being with an A-4 but unless my reading comprehension is all scrambled up from model glue it sure looks like there was the potential for 1v1 encounters to have been with not just the usual F-5's and A-4's but also with the F-86, P-51, F-16 and F-15.  Now the last two I cant say I'm super surprised about, the Navy even flew a variant F-16 just for aggressor duty, and tapping the Air Force for help is probably not too much of a bureaucratic nightmare, but the Mustangs and Sabre certainly jump off the page!

I've been looking around for other references to Sabers and Mustangs being flown as aggressors at TOP GUN with no luck outside this one article.  Have any of you heard something similar?  Id love to find pictures!  And while we're at it, what other aircraft do you know about being flown as aggressors anywhere in the world?

[PR19_Kit]

On a similar front the RAF once used a BoB Memorial Flight Spitfire XIV as an 'aggressor' to test against Lightnings that may have run into P-51s in Indonesia IIRC.

[kitnut617]

On a similar front the RAF once used a BoB Memorial Flight Spitfire XIV as an 'aggressor' to test against Lightnings that may have run into P-51s in Indonesia IIRC.

IIRC, I've read that it was a PR.XIX which is now with the BoB Flight

[tahsin]

Bob Hall's Topgun, a softcover from 1980s, had the same scene but the prop was a Corsair. Jaguar was a "foreign" jet. The article also seems fit for the 21st Century sensibilities because the envelope handed to each crew would start with something like "Capitalist Pig" or suitable as a joke in the way of throwing the gauntlet.

[Snowtrooper]

Never heard of Mustangs (or Corsairs) and Sabres being used in Topgun, but makes sense. Jaguar was a surprise to be honest, especially in the 1980's timeframe (thought even the RAF only used Hawks, Hunters, and Gnats for DACT), did they actually loan one to USN?

Nowadays, of course, with most of the aggressor squadron business "outsourced" to PMC's (Draken International, ATAC, TacAir, Top Aces/Discovery Air Defence, and many many other smaller companies), these "private aggressors" operate all sorts of exotics (and even the USAF has officially purchased second-hand MiG-29's and Su-27's), so hardly anything is a surprise anymore. Several companies even operate Hunters still!

[sandiego89]

I recently read that F-104's used to make a few surprise visits to the William Tell fighter meets in the USA.  Their high speed slashing attacks caught a few off guard.   

[kitnut617]

Several companies even operate Hunters still!

One of them is Canadian, called Northern Lights

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/363765

[TheChronicOne]

Never heard of Mustangs (or Corsairs) and Sabres being used in Topgun, but makes sense. Jaguar was a surprise to be honest, especially in the 1980's timeframe (thought even the RAF only used Hawks, Hunters, and Gnats for DACT), did they actually loan one to USN?

Nowadays, of course, with most of the aggressor squadron business "outsourced" to PMC's (Draken International, ATAC, TacAir, Top Aces/Discovery Air Defence, and many many other smaller companies), these "private aggressors" operate all sorts of exotics (and even the USAF has officially purchased second-hand MiG-29's and Su-27's), so hardly anything is a surprise anymore. Several companies even operate Hunters still!

This what I was going to mention. I had just recently been reading about ATAC. Pretty fascinating stuff.

The "missing fighter" F-21 of USAF are actually KFIR aggressors. I always thought that was neat. Hear of F-15, F-16, F-22, etc but the F-21 is rarely mentioned.


Anyway, the stuff OP is wondering about is all in the wording; they recited the procedures for the planes they were actually flying:

"The types of aircraft going through the class and those flown by the instructors were recited,"

Followed by more recitation of the procedures for planes they weren't flying, but had knowledge of none the less:

"followed by the Air Force pilots reciting F-15 and F-16 procedures, and the others briefing P-51 and F-86 procedures."

In short, they went through the procedure for planes they were actually flying, then went through the procedures for comparable modern equivalent USAF planes then threw in the procedures for the older stuff for completions sake. They're not saying they flew those planes, they're just saying they briefed on the procedure for bailing out of them.

[kerick]

Don't forget that the mention of older types could have been just military sense of humor.

[Air21]

That seems un-Navy to me Cronic  Naval Aviators learn a very specific and simple procedure for their aircraft bto recover from stalls, spins, or to eject.  It seems counterintuitive to have a Tomcat pilot who may very well need to use those procedures very soon recite or even think about how he'd recover a P-51.

Mustangs and Sabres had been out of the inventory for almost twenty years and never in Navy inventory at this point but a Mustang could stand in for a Yak 9 and a Sabre for a Mig-15.  Probably anything that can turn tight and slow is going to be valuable teaching BFM.

Just looking at the same quotes it seems to me like the F-15 and F-16's we're visiting the program and the others were available as potential threats.

But you could be right, this is an obscure reference and I haven't seen anything else.  I'd be skeptical though that it was a joke or just an FYI.

What I was really hoping for was a Mustang or Sabre in an awesome disruptive scheme lol

[TheChronicOne]

I never said anything about a Tomcat pilot reciting anything or recovering from anything, let alone a P-51 Mustang...   

I said that they(those gathered to lecture at the FWS) mentioned the bail-out procedures for those old planes merely as historical reference. "Recitation" and like nomenclature is working purely from the source material as it said that the instructors would "recite" the material. That in no way means anyone else recited it and how you made that gigantic leap is beyond me.

AGAIN: They talked about punching out of their modern aircraft that they were actually flying. They also had USAF talking about procedures for punching out of their modern jets then for historical reference they would talk about how they used to do it in Sabres and Mustangs.

[Dizzyfugu]

IIRC, at least one Saab 32 Lansen was also operated by a private US aggressor company - but I think it was rather used as a target tug, not for dogfight training.

[PR19_Kit]

IIRC, at least one Saab 32 Lansen was also operated by a private US aggressor company - but I think it was rather used as a target tug, not for dogfight training.

I saw a Lansen on the ground at Mojave some time in the late 90s. I was amazed, it was the very last type I'd have expected to see out there.

It was painted in a pale cream with a mid-green stripe along its whole length. No-one there either knew about it, or wanted to talk about it...................

[Dizzyfugu]

I think that's the one; I know that it carried an all-light grey livery while in service, and it ended up in the Mojave boneyard.

Found a pic of it:



And here are more impression, from a better overall state: http://www.aerialvisuals.ca/AirframeDossier.php?Serial=13879

[perttime]

Googling for Saab 32 Lansen Mojave finds photos of some different ones with different civilian registrations.