avatar_The Rat

It's a whiff for now...

Started by The Rat, May 31, 2019, 07:03:22 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

The Rat

But might not be in future:

"In pursuit of $19B contract, Sweden's Saab offers to build fleet of fighter jets in Canada
Also Airbus, has hinted it could also build its Typhoon fighters in Canada, but Saab said if the federal government wants the planes built on a domestic production line its commitment is solid"

https://www.fliegerfaust.com/cf18-replacement-canada--2638496576.html?fbclid=IwAR3gTLbZhmYpcRFSHb58u3D-fPZyd3wUIYzAw6o6xn0e8sbATgbTU0_kEuU
"My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought, cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives." Hedley Lamarr, Blazing Saddles

Life is too short to worry about perfection

Youtube: https://tinyurl.com/46dpfdpr

PR19_Kit

Being a tad JMN-ish, it's not just up to Airbus as the Typhoon isn't just 'theirs'. I think BAe Systems and Leonardo may have to agree to such a project as well.
Kit's Rule 1 ) Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage
Kit's Rule 2) The backstory can always be changed to suit the model

...and I'm not a closeted 'Take That' fan, I'm a REAL fan! :)

Regards
Kit

kitbasher

There's an awful lot of northern NORAD emptiness that has traditionally informed Canadian decisions to go for twin-engined aircraft to look after that bit of sky - hence CF-101, Voodoo and Hornet.  Even the F-5 (although that wasn't ever an air defender in Canadian service) had a pair. 
The CF-104 didn't buck the trend as it was essentially a ground pounder. 
The F-35 if purchased (currently unlikely) would definitely buck the trend.
So for now I'd see Typhoon over Gripen (wherever they're built).
What If? & Secret Project SIG member.
On the go: Beaumaris/Battle/Bronco/Barracuda/F-105(UK)/Flatning/Hellcat IV/Hunter PR11/Hurricane IIb/Ice Cream Tank/JP T4/Jumo MiG-15/M21/P1103 (early)/P1127/P1154-ish/Phantom FG1/I-153/Sea Hawk T7/Spitfire XII/Spitfire Tr18/Twin Otter/FrankenCOIN/Frankenfighter

NARSES2

All depends what the word "built" means ? After all are we builders of model kits or assemblers ?  :angel:
Do not condemn the judgement of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong.

PR19_Kit

Quote from: NARSES2 on June 01, 2019, 01:56:10 AM

All depends what the word "built" means ? After all are we builders of model kits or assemblers ?  :angel:


The RW aviation world is very international these days, even the 'American' F-35 has large chunks actually manufactured in the UK, which are then shipped to the US for final assembly. No doubt other parts are made elsewhere too.

Do SAAB mean they'll make EVERYthing in Canada?
Kit's Rule 1 ) Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage
Kit's Rule 2) The backstory can always be changed to suit the model

...and I'm not a closeted 'Take That' fan, I'm a REAL fan! :)

Regards
Kit

scooter

Quote from: PR19_Kit on June 01, 2019, 04:01:27 AM

Do SAAB mean they'll make EVERYthing in Canada?

If that's the case, it'll be a boon to employment.
The F-106- 26 December 1956 to 8 August 1988
Gone But Not Forgotten

QuoteOh are you from Wales ?? Do you know a fella named Jonah ?? He used to live in whales for a while.
— Groucho Marx

My dA page: Scooternjng

kerick

Do either of these aircraft meet the requirement for an interceptor over the Great White North? Or is anyone doing that anymore?
" Somewhere, between half true, and completely crazy, is a rainbow of nice colours "
Tophe the Wise

kitnut617

Quote from: kerick on June 01, 2019, 06:54:45 AM
Do either of these aircraft meet the requirement for an interceptor over the Great White North? Or is anyone doing that anymore?

Well, as much as an interceptor the CF-18's are ---- but they're still 4th generation fighters (ok maybe 4.5). What gets me is the current government say the F-35 is too expensive, but Belgium, Poland and other tiny countries with not a high population are buying it --
If I'm not building models, I'm out riding my dirtbike

PR19_Kit

Quote from: kerick on June 01, 2019, 06:54:45 AM

Do either of these aircraft meet the requirement for an interceptor over the Great White North? Or is anyone doing that anymore?


The Typhoon was originally designed as an interceptor over the North Sea and the Atlantic.

All the air-to-ground capability was added later.
Kit's Rule 1 ) Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage
Kit's Rule 2) The backstory can always be changed to suit the model

...and I'm not a closeted 'Take That' fan, I'm a REAL fan! :)

Regards
Kit

NARSES2

Quote from: kitnut617 on June 01, 2019, 08:04:35 AM

Well, as much as an interceptor the CF-18's are ---- but they're still 4th generation fighters (ok maybe 4.5). What gets me is the current government say the F-35 is too expensive, but Belgium, Poland and other tiny countries with not a high population are buying it --

Yea, but the Netherlands and Canada share similar GDP's and Belgium isn't that far behind and GDP is a far better indicator than population size. As for how other countries are "affording" it then that's mired in the realms of geo-politics.
Do not condemn the judgement of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong.

rickshaw

Quote from: NARSES2 on June 02, 2019, 01:12:25 AM
Quote from: kitnut617 on June 01, 2019, 08:04:35 AM

Well, as much as an interceptor the CF-18's are ---- but they're still 4th generation fighters (ok maybe 4.5). What gets me is the current government say the F-35 is too expensive, but Belgium, Poland and other tiny countries with not a high population are buying it --

Yea, but the Netherlands and Canada share similar GDP's and Belgium isn't that far behind and GDP is a far better indicator than population size. As for how other countries are "affording" it then that's mired in the realms of geo-politics.

It also depends when are they buying it?  Anything bought earlier in it's production run costs more than something bought later.   Downunder, because we have jumped onto the F-35 early because we jumped into the F/A-18 production run early, are paying approximately 1.25 times the cost compared to countries which have jumped in later.  That is what economies of scale do to things which have long(er) production runs.   :banghead:
How to reduce carbon emissions - Tip #1 - Walk to the Bar for drinks.

NARSES2

Quote from: rickshaw on June 05, 2019, 04:18:13 PM
  Downunder, because we have jumped onto the F-35 early because we jumped into the F/A-18 production run early, are paying approximately 1.25 times the cost compared to countries which have jumped in later.  That is what economies of scale do to things which have long(er) production runs.   :banghead:

And yet sometimes initial customers will get a good deal simply to "encourage" the others  :-X
Do not condemn the judgement of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong.

kitnut617

The Gripen may be designed for artic conditions but Sweden is only a fraction of the size of Canada -- different scenario (you can say the same for Denmark, Norway and Finland)

from the internet;

"Canada is about 22 times bigger than Sweden. Sweden is approximately 450,295 sq km, while Canada is approximately 9,984,670 sq km. Meanwhile, the population of Sweden is ~10.0 million people (25.7 million more people live in Canada). We have positioned the outline of Sweden near the middle of Canada."

Interesting to note; What is termed Europe today is a bit bigger in area to Canada, just over 10,000,000 sq km.
If I'm not building models, I'm out riding my dirtbike

rickshaw

Quote from: NARSES2 on June 06, 2019, 06:16:47 AM
Quote from: rickshaw on June 05, 2019, 04:18:13 PM
  Downunder, because we have jumped onto the F-35 early because we jumped into the F/A-18 production run early, are paying approximately 1.25 times the cost compared to countries which have jumped in later.  That is what economies of scale do to things which have long(er) production runs.   :banghead:

And yet sometimes initial customers will get a good deal simply to "encourage" the others  :-X

One would hope so but in aerospace it doesn't seem to apply, Chris.   :banghead:
How to reduce carbon emissions - Tip #1 - Walk to the Bar for drinks.

Snowtrooper

Gripen's small size is also a handicap. Sure, if all you do is recognition flights, it will do, but in other tasks and environments the "payload fraction" is going to be a handicap. Can it haul bombs? Yes, but its performance will quickly degrade to nothing because of their relative weight compared to the rest of the plane. Need to carry ECM and designator pods too? Well there go the hardpoints for drop tanks or extra pair of AAM's... and suddenly that "great fuel economy" does not help so much anymore.

Sure, it could maybe patrol the Canadian northern approaches, but it would be the absolute minimum performer in that. Its radar would have less performance compared to a physically larger model using similar technology, and one has to remember that all the fancy electronics being advertised for E/F models have not been integrated yet even if the prototype is flying. As anyone following F-35 (or Typhoon) news would tell you, software and electronics are the Achilles heel of any modern plane and will not be done just like that; from the maiden flight of the prototype you will have a long and arduous road (as in 10 to 20 years!) to an operational weapons system. The planned delivery schedule to Flygvapnet and Brazil in 2019-2024 timeframe is extremely ambitious optimistic. Oh, SAAB can deliver the airframes, no doubt, but will the planes be operational by 2024? I have my doubts.