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1:72 T-34/105Ö Jagdpanzer, Österreichisches Bundesheer, 1969

Started by Dizzyfugu, August 18, 2019, 07:42:07 AM

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Dizzyfugu


1:72 T-34/105Ö; vehicle "203", Österreichisches Bundesheer (Austrian Armed Forces' Federal Army), 2. Kompanie, Panzerbataillon 4; Graz/Austria, 1969 (Whif/kitbashing)
by dizzyfugu, on Flickr


1:72 T-34/105Ö; vehicle "203", Österreichisches Bundesheer (Austrian Armed Forces' Federal Army), 2. Kompanie, Panzerbataillon 4; Graz/Austria, 1969 (Whif/kitbashing)
by dizzyfugu, on Flickr


1:72 T-34/105Ö; vehicle "203", Österreichisches Bundesheer (Austrian Armed Forces' Federal Army), 2. Kompanie, Panzerbataillon 4; Graz/Austria, 1969 (Whif/kitbashing)
by dizzyfugu, on Flickr




Some background:
The T-34, a Soviet medium tank, had a profound and lasting effect on the field of tank design. At its introduction in 1940, the T-34 possessed an unprecedented combination of firepower, mobility, protection and ruggedness. Its 76.2 mm high-velocity tank gun provided a substantial increase in firepower over any of its contemporaries while its well-sloped armour was difficult to penetrate by most contemporary anti-tank weapons. Although its armour and armament were surpassed later in the war, it has often been credited as the most effective, efficient and influential tank design of the Second World War.

The T-34 was the mainstay of Soviet armoured forces throughout the Second World War. Its design allowed it to be continuously refined to meet the constantly evolving needs of the Eastern Front: as the war went on it became more capable, but also quicker and cheaper to produce. Soviet industry would eventually produce over 80,000 T-34s of all variants, allowing steadily greater numbers to be fielded as the war progressed despite the loss of tens of thousands in combat against the German Wehrmacht. Replacing many light and medium tanks in Red Army service, it was the most-produced tank of the war, as well as the second most produced tank of all time (after its successor, the T-54/55 series). T-34 variants were widely exported after World War II, and even as recently as 2010, the tank has seen limited front-line service with several developing countries.


1:72 T-34/105Ö; vehicle "203", Österreichisches Bundesheer (Austrian Armed Forces' Federal Army), 2. Kompanie, Panzerbataillon 4; Graz/Austria, 1969 (Whif/kitbashing)
by dizzyfugu, on Flickr


1:72 T-34/105Ö; vehicle "203", Österreichisches Bundesheer (Austrian Armed Forces' Federal Army), 2. Kompanie, Panzerbataillon 4; Graz/Austria, 1969 (Whif/kitbashing)
by dizzyfugu, on Flickr


1:72 T-34/105Ö; vehicle "203", Österreichisches Bundesheer (Austrian Armed Forces' Federal Army), 2. Kompanie, Panzerbataillon 4; Graz/Austria, 1969 (Whif/kitbashing)
by dizzyfugu, on Flickr


One of the unusual and rather unknown operators of the T-34 was Austria. 25 tanks (some sources claim 27 or even 37) of the late T-34/85 variant came as a gift from (well, they were actually left behind by) the Soviet Union in 1955 when the Red Army left the country, meaning that the Austrian Bundesheer was re-established. These vehicles became the young army's initial backbone, until more modern equipment (e. g. M41 and M47 tanks procured from the USA and AMX-13/75 tanks from France) replaced them in frontline service. Due to their ruggedness and simplicity, they were kept in service, though - primarily for training, and some vehicles were in the 1970s integrated into hidden bunkers, defending strategically vital "security space zones".

A revival of the Austrian T-34/85 fleet came in the late Sixties, though, when the Austrian Army recognized a lack in long range attack capabilities (at 1.000 m range and more) against hardened targets like enemy tanks, paired with high mobility and low costs, similar to the German Jagdpanzer profile from WWII. At that time, Austria operated roundabout 50 Charioteer tanks with 83.4 mm guns in this role, but these British vehicles were outdated and needed a timely replacement.
Another limiting factor were severe budget restrictions. The eventual solution came from the Austrian company Saurer: a relatively simple conversion of the indigenous Saurer APC, armed with a version of the French AMX-13's FL-12 oscillating turret, armed with a powerful 105mm cannon, which had just become available in an export version. However, in order to bridge the new tank hunter's development time and quickly fill the defense gap, the Austrian T-34/85s were checked whether it was possible to modernize them with the new turret, too.


1:72 T-34/105Ö; vehicle "203", Österreichisches Bundesheer (Austrian Armed Forces' Federal Army), 2. Kompanie, Panzerbataillon 4; Graz/Austria, 1969 (Whif/kitbashing)
by dizzyfugu, on Flickr


1:72 T-34/105Ö; vehicle "203", Österreichisches Bundesheer (Austrian Armed Forces' Federal Army), 2. Kompanie, Panzerbataillon 4; Graz/Austria, 1969 (Whif/kitbashing)
by dizzyfugu, on Flickr


1:72 T-34/105Ö; vehicle "203", Österreichisches Bundesheer (Austrian Armed Forces' Federal Army), 2. Kompanie, Panzerbataillon 4; Graz/Austria, 1969 (Whif/kitbashing)
by dizzyfugu, on Flickr


The first conversion was carried out by Saurer in 1963 and proved to be successful. Since the light FL-12 turret had a smaller bearing diameter than the old T-34/85 turret, the integration into the hull went straightforward with the help of a simple adapter ring. What made the conversion even simpler was the fact that the FL-12, with its integrated cannon and an automated loading system, was a complete, self-sufficient unit.

The French turret was only lightly armoured, since the tank was not supposed to engage heavily-armed enemies at close range. The turret's front armour protected the crew from 20mm armour-piercing rounds over its frontal arc, while all-round protection was against small arms bullets only. The commander was seated on the left of the turret and the gunner on the right. The commander was provided with seven periscopes and a periscopic sight. The commander's infrared night sight had a magnification of x6. The gunner had two observation periscopes, a telescopic sight and a one-piece lifting and swiveling hatch cover. Due to the design of the oscillating turret, all sights were always linked to the main and secondary armament (a standard NATO machine gun). For engaging targets at night, an infrared periscopic sight was provided for the commander. In order to simplify and lighten the tank, the T-34's bow machine gun in the hull was deleted and its opening faired over and the crew was reduced to three.

The 105 mm gun could penetrate 360 mm of armour, and the internal magazines of 2x 6 shots allowed a very high rate of fire (up to 12 shots per minute), even though a crew member had to leave the tank in order to fill the magazines up again from the outside. Once the gun had been fired the empty cartridge cases were ejected out of the rear of the turret through a trapdoor hinged on the left. Beyond the 12 rounds in the turret, a further 42 rounds were stored in the tank's hull, primarily in a stowage rack for 30 shots where the former second crew member in the front hull had been placed, and a further twelve rounds in magazines at the turret's base.


1:72 T-34/105Ö; vehicle "203", Österreichisches Bundesheer (Austrian Armed Forces' Federal Army), 2. Kompanie, Panzerbataillon 4; Graz/Austria, 1969 (Whif/kitbashing)
by dizzyfugu, on Flickr


1:72 T-34/105Ö; vehicle "203", Österreichisches Bundesheer (Austrian Armed Forces' Federal Army), 2. Kompanie, Panzerbataillon 4; Graz/Austria, 1969 (Whif/kitbashing)
by dizzyfugu, on Flickr


1:72 T-34/105Ö; vehicle "203", Österreichisches Bundesheer (Austrian Armed Forces' Federal Army), 2. Kompanie, Panzerbataillon 4; Graz/Austria, 1969 (Whif/kitbashing)
by dizzyfugu, on Flickr


The T-34/85's engine and transmission were not changed, since an update was beyond the conversion budget limit, but lighter "skeleton" wheels from Czech T-34 post-war production were introduced, so that the modified tank weighed roundabout 30 tons, 2 less than the standard T-35/85.

After highly successful field tests with the prototype in the course of 1963 and 1964, a further conversion program for 16 tanks was approved and carried out until early 1965. The modified tanks received the official designation T-34/105Ö and allocated to two tank battalions. Most of the time these tanks were only used for training purposes, though, in preparation of the arrival of the "real" tank hunter, the SK-105 "Kürassier" (Cuirassier) with almost identical weapon systems. The SK-105's first prototype was eventually ready in 1967 and delivery of pre-production vehicles commenced in 1971, but teething troubles and many detail problems delayed the type's quick and widespread introduction. Lighter and much more agile than the vintage T-34s, it became a big success and was produced in more than 700 specimen, almost 300 of them for the Austrian Army and the rest for export (Argentina, Bolivia, Botswana, Brazil, Morocco and Tunisia). In consequence, the small T-34/105Ö fleet was soon retired and by 1976, when the Kürassier was in service and other, heavy tanks had become available, none of the converted tanks was still active anymore. Nevertheless, a few Austrian T-34s that had become part of the hidden bunker installations soldiered secretly on, the last ones were dug out of their positions and scrapped in 2007(!).





Specifications:
    Crew: Three (commander, gunner, driver)
    Weight: 29.7 t combat load
    Length: 8.21 m (26 ft 10 ½ in) with turret forward
          6.10 m (19 ft 11 ¾ in) hull only
    Width: 3.00 m (9 ft 10 in)
    Height: 2,74 m (8 ft 11 ½ in)
    Suspension: Christie
    Ground clearance: 0.4 m (16 in)
    Fuel capacity: eight internal tanks, total capacity of 545 l (145 U.S. gal; 118 imp gal),
               plus up to four external fuel drums à 90 l each (24 U.S. gal; 19.5 imp gal)

Engine:
    Model V-2-34M 38.8 l V12 Diesel engine with 520 hp (370 kW) at 1.800 rpm

Transmission:
    5 forward and 1 reverse gears

Armor:
    16 - 45 mm steel (plus composite armour in the turret)

Performance:
    Speed:
      - Maximum, road: 58 km/h (36 mph)
      - Cross country: up to 40 km/h (28 mph)
    Operational range: 250 km (155) on streets with internal fuel only,
                   up to 330 km (250 mi) with four additional fuel drums
    Power/weight: 17.5 hp/t

Armament:
    1× 105 mm CN 105-57 rifled gun with a total 54 rounds, 12 of them ready in the turret's magazines
    1× 7.62mm (0.3") co-axial NATO machine gun with 2.000 rounds
    2× 2 smoke grenade dischargers




The kit and its assembly:
This weird, fictional combo was originally spawned by an Israeli idea: some vintage M4 Sherman tanks had been outfitted with the AMX-13's swiveling turrets and armed with French CN-75-50 75mm a cannon, creating the so-called "Isherman". I kept this concept in the back of my mind for a long time, with the plan to build one some day.
Then I came a couple of weeks ago across a picture on FlickR that showed a T-34/85 with Austrian markings. At first I thought that it had been a fictional museum piece in fake markings, but upon some legwork I found out that Austria had actually operated the T-34!

So, why not combine both ideas into a new and fictional one...? The rest was straightforward kitbashing: the FL-12 turret with a 105 mm cannon came from a Heller AMX-13 (a shaggy thing with dubious fit, but it was cheap) and for the chassis I tried the relatively new Zvezda T-35/85.

The latter is actually a very crisp snap-fit kit, just some light flash here and there. Detail and proportions are very good, though, as well as fit. I was only surprised by the construction of the tracks, because it is a different approach from both of the traditional vinyl tracks or IP track segments. Instead, you get complete, rather thin and delicate IP tracks, and Zvezda expects the builder to bend them around the wheels and stick them between the wheels' halves during the construction process. You actually have to mount the "inner" half of the wheels first, then the track is attached to a locator pin on one of the main wheels, bent into shape, and finally the wheels' "outer" halves are added. Sounds complicated, and it actually is, and it also makes painting the whole running gear quite difficult, but it works – even though the result is IMHO not better than the traditional solutions.

The AMX-13 turret's integration was easier than expected. Building the turret was a little complicated, because all side walls are separate and there are no locator pins or other aides for orientation. Some PSR became necessary to fill some minor gaps, but nothing dramatic. Mounting the AMX-13 turret to the T-34 hull was made easy through a very convenient design detail of the Zvezda kit: the T-34 comes with a separate turret ring that could be used as an adapter for the Heller turret. Three ejection/sprue residues inside of the ring could be used as a foundation for the AMX-13 turret, and the turret's lower half/ring was, after some sanding to reduce the gap between the turret and the hull, was also glued onto the adapter. Worked like a charm, and the resulting combo looks very natural!


1:72 T-34/105Ö; vehicle "203", Österreichisches Bundesheer (Austrian Armed Forces' Federal Army), 2. Kompanie, Panzerbataillon 4; Graz/Austria, 1969 (Whif/kitbashing) - WiP
by dizzyfugu, on Flickr


1:72 T-34/105Ö; vehicle "203", Österreichisches Bundesheer (Austrian Armed Forces' Federal Army), 2. Kompanie, Panzerbataillon 4; Graz/Austria, 1969 (Whif/kitbashing) - WiP
by dizzyfugu, on Flickr


1:72 T-34/105Ö; vehicle "203", Österreichisches Bundesheer (Austrian Armed Forces' Federal Army), 2. Kompanie, Panzerbataillon 4; Graz/Austria, 1969 (Whif/kitbashing) - WiP
by dizzyfugu, on Flickr


1:72 T-34/105Ö; vehicle "203", Österreichisches Bundesheer (Austrian Armed Forces' Federal Army), 2. Kompanie, Panzerbataillon 4; Graz/Austria, 1969 (Whif/kitbashing) - WiP
by dizzyfugu, on Flickr


In order to improve the turret's look I added a cloth seal between the lower and the upper, oscillating turret section, simulated with paper tissue drenched in thinned white glue (OOB the turret cannot be moved vertically at all). A similar seal was added at the barrel's base.


1:72 T-34/105Ö; vehicle "203", Österreichisches Bundesheer (Austrian Armed Forces' Federal Army), 2. Kompanie, Panzerbataillon 4; Graz/Austria, 1969 (Whif/kitbashing) - WiP
by dizzyfugu, on Flickr


1:72 T-34/105Ö; vehicle "203", Österreichisches Bundesheer (Austrian Armed Forces' Federal Army), 2. Kompanie, Panzerbataillon 4; Graz/Austria, 1969 (Whif/kitbashing) - WiP
by dizzyfugu, on Flickr


Other changes were only minimal: the machine gun port in the front hull was sanded away and faired over, and I omitted the spare track links attached to the front hull. For a modernized look I gave the tank an additional pair of front lights as well as stoplights at the rear, scratched from styrene bits.


Painting and markings:
Basically a very simple affair, because there is ONLY one possible livery and color that suits an Austrian Bundesheer vehicle or item from the Seventies: RAL 7013 (Braungrau). This is a very ugly tone, though, "greenish, fresh mud" describes it well: a dull, brownish olive drab, but definitively not a green (like the omnipresent NATO tone Gelboliv RAL 6014, which was used by the German Bundeswehr until the standardized NATO three-tone camouflage was introduced around 1984). I organized a rattle can of this special color, since the tank model would receive a simple, uniform livery.


1:72 T-34/105Ö; vehicle "203", Österreichisches Bundesheer (Austrian Armed Forces' Federal Army), 2. Kompanie, Panzerbataillon 4; Graz/Austria, 1969 (Whif/kitbashing) - WiP
by dizzyfugu, on Flickr


1:72 T-34/105Ö; vehicle "203", Österreichisches Bundesheer (Austrian Armed Forces' Federal Army), 2. Kompanie, Panzerbataillon 4; Graz/Austria, 1969 (Whif/kitbashing) - WiP
by dizzyfugu, on Flickr


Due to the kit's , err, unique running gear construction, painting became a little complicated. I had to paint the hull and the (still) separate wheel parts in advance, so that the pre-painted elements could be assembled around the tracks (see above). The tracks themselves were painted with a cloudy mix of iron metallic, black and leather brown (Revell 99, 8 and 84). The turret was painted separately. 


1:72 T-34/105Ö; vehicle "203", Österreichisches Bundesheer (Austrian Armed Forces' Federal Army), 2. Kompanie, Panzerbataillon 4; Graz/Austria, 1969 (Whif/kitbashing) - WiP
by dizzyfugu, on Flickr


1:72 T-34/105Ö; vehicle "203", Österreichisches Bundesheer (Austrian Armed Forces' Federal Army), 2. Kompanie, Panzerbataillon 4; Graz/Austria, 1969 (Whif/kitbashing) - WiP
by dizzyfugu, on Flickr


1:72 T-34/105Ö; vehicle "203", Österreichisches Bundesheer (Austrian Armed Forces' Federal Army), 2. Kompanie, Panzerbataillon 4; Graz/Austria, 1969 (Whif/kitbashing) - WiP
by dizzyfugu, on Flickr


1:72 T-34/105Ö; vehicle "203", Österreichisches Bundesheer (Austrian Armed Forces' Federal Army), 2. Kompanie, Panzerbataillon 4; Graz/Austria, 1969 (Whif/kitbashing) - WiP
by dizzyfugu, on Flickr


After the kit's major sections had been assembled they received a light wash with a mix of highly thinned black with some red brown added, and the washing was immediately dabbed off of the surfaces so that most of the pigments ended up in recesses and around details, while the rest received an blurry, light dirt filter.


1:72 T-34/105Ö; vehicle "203", Österreichisches Bundesheer (Austrian Armed Forces' Federal Army), 2. Kompanie, Panzerbataillon 4; Graz/Austria, 1969 (Whif/kitbashing) - WiP
by dizzyfugu, on Flickr


1:72 T-34/105Ö; vehicle "203", Österreichisches Bundesheer (Austrian Armed Forces' Federal Army), 2. Kompanie, Panzerbataillon 4; Graz/Austria, 1969 (Whif/kitbashing) - WiP
by dizzyfugu, on Flickr


Once dry, I applied the decals. The tiny Austrian roundels come from a generic TL Modellbau sheet (never expected to find any use for them!), the tactical code comes from another tank kit sheet. In order to add some more highlights I also added some small, white markings on the fenders.
Then I gave the model an overall dry-brushing treatment with olive drab, medium grey and finally some ochre, just emphasizing details and edges.


1:72 T-34/105Ö; vehicle "203", Österreichisches Bundesheer (Austrian Armed Forces' Federal Army), 2. Kompanie, Panzerbataillon 4; Graz/Austria, 1969 (Whif/kitbashing) - WiP
by dizzyfugu, on Flickr


Since the uniform livery appeared a bit dull to me, I decided to add a few camouflage nets to the hull, which also hide some weak points of the Zvezda kit, e.g. the missing rails along the hull. The nets were created from gauze bandages: small pieces (~1"x1") of the material were dipped into a mix of white glue and olive drab acrylic paint and then carefully placed on hull, turret and barrel. Once dry, they were also dry-brushed.


1:72 T-34/105Ö; vehicle "203", Österreichisches Bundesheer (Austrian Armed Forces' Federal Army), 2. Kompanie, Panzerbataillon 4; Graz/Austria, 1969 (Whif/kitbashing) - WiP
by dizzyfugu, on Flickr


1:72 T-34/105Ö; vehicle "203", Österreichisches Bundesheer (Austrian Armed Forces' Federal Army), 2. Kompanie, Panzerbataillon 4; Graz/Austria, 1969 (Whif/kitbashing) - WiP
by dizzyfugu, on Flickr


As final steps, the kit was sealed with matt acrylic varnish (rattle can again) and I dusted the lower areas with a greyish-brown pigment mix, simulating dust and some mud crusts.





1:72 T-34/105Ö; vehicle "203", Österreichisches Bundesheer (Austrian Armed Forces' Federal Army), 2. Kompanie, Panzerbataillon 4; Graz/Austria, 1969 (Whif/kitbashing)
by dizzyfugu, on Flickr


1:72 T-34/105Ö; vehicle "203", Österreichisches Bundesheer (Austrian Armed Forces' Federal Army), 2. Kompanie, Panzerbataillon 4; Graz/Austria, 1969 (Whif/kitbashing)
by dizzyfugu, on Flickr


1:72 T-34/105Ö; vehicle "203", Österreichisches Bundesheer (Austrian Armed Forces' Federal Army), 2. Kompanie, Panzerbataillon 4; Graz/Austria, 1969 (Whif/kitbashing)
by dizzyfugu, on Flickr


1:72 T-34/105Ö; vehicle "203", Österreichisches Bundesheer (Austrian Armed Forces' Federal Army), 2. Kompanie, Panzerbataillon 4; Graz/Austria, 1969 (Whif/kitbashing)
by dizzyfugu, on Flickr


What started as a weird idea turned into a very conclusive what-if project – in fact, the T-34 with the French FL-12/44 turret does not look bad at all, and the Austrian colors and markings make this piece of fiction IMHO very convincing. Adding the camouflage nets was also a good move. They hide some of the details (e.g. the omitted bow machine gun station), but they liven up the rather clean and bleak exterior of the tank. I am positively surprised how good the T-34/105Ö looks!

chrisonord

Very nice  Dizzy,  I  wasn't sure about the turret  to begin with,  but  the more I  look at it, the more I like it  :thumbsup:
Chris
The dogs philosophy on life.
If you cant eat it hump it or fight it,
Pee on it and walk away!!

Sport21ing

How! Very beautiful - the only problem I've found is the typo on the title (T-43«---, instead of T-34)
My deviantart page:
http://sport16ing.deviantart.com/

PS: Not my art, not very good at drawning :P

nighthunter

"Mind that bus." "What bus?" *SPLAT!*

Old Wombat

Has a life outside of What-If & wishes it would stop interfering!

"The purpose of all War is Peace" - St. Augustine

veritas ad mortus veritas est

Dizzyfugu

Quote from: Sport21ing on August 18, 2019, 09:16:14 AM
How! Very beautiful - the only problem I've found is the typo on the title (T-43«---, instead of T-34)

Oops, mended!  :rolleyes:

And many thanks, everyone, glad you like it!

NARSES2

Quote from: chrisonord on August 18, 2019, 08:41:51 AM
Very nice  Dizzy,  I  wasn't sure about the turret  to begin with,  but  the more I  look at it, the more I like it  :thumbsup:
Chris

I've always been fascinated by the oscillating turret idea for some reason. Perhaps just because it was different ?.

Fantastic piece of work Dizzy  :thumbsup:
Do not condemn the judgement of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong.

Dizzyfugu

Thank you, as well as for the nomination. Another potential oscillating tower tank is in the (long) pipeline, but a bigger one than the medium T-34.

Old Wombat

Quote from: NARSES2 on August 19, 2019, 06:07:20 AM
Quote from: chrisonord on August 18, 2019, 08:41:51 AM
Very nice  Dizzy,  I  wasn't sure about the turret  to begin with,  but  the more I  look at it, the more I like it  :thumbsup:
Chris

I've always been fascinated by the oscillating turret idea for some reason. Perhaps just because it was different ?.

Fantastic piece of work Dizzy  :thumbsup:

Problem with the oscillating turret AFV designs is that the turret crew (commander & gunner, as they usually have to be auto-loaders) are stuck in a turret basket which swings around inside the hull of the AFV & wastes a lot of the already very limited space inside the vehicle in doing so. Space that could be put to better use for crew ergonomics, ammunition, etc., with a regular turret design.
Has a life outside of What-If & wishes it would stop interfering!

"The purpose of all War is Peace" - St. Augustine

veritas ad mortus veritas est

rickshaw

Quote from: Old Wombat on August 19, 2019, 08:05:32 AM
Quote from: NARSES2 on August 19, 2019, 06:07:20 AM
Quote from: chrisonord on August 18, 2019, 08:41:51 AM
Very nice  Dizzy,  I  wasn't sure about the turret  to begin with,  but  the more I  look at it, the more I like it  :thumbsup:
Chris

I've always been fascinated by the oscillating turret idea for some reason. Perhaps just because it was different ?.

Fantastic piece of work Dizzy  :thumbsup:

Problem with the oscillating turret AFV designs is that the turret crew (commander & gunner, as they usually have to be auto-loaders) are stuck in a turret basket which swings around inside the hull of the AFV & wastes a lot of the already very limited space inside the vehicle in doing so. Space that could be put to better use for crew ergonomics, ammunition, etc., with a regular turret design.

This is only part of the problem with the oscillating turret.  The biggest problem is sealing it against the ingress of radioactive particles and poisonous gas.  That was why only the French and by extension their various client states, including Austria, decided to adopt it.  The fUSSR and the USA both looked at using oscillating turrets but knocked them back.  In the 1980s, the French came out with a second round of such turrets, claiming they had fixed the sealing problem but no one, not even the French Army took up the manufacturers claims.
How to reduce carbon emissions - Tip #1 - Walk to the Bar for drinks.

Dizzyfugu

A different route for oscillating turrets is to completely remove the cannon (and the ammunition) from the tank's hull. But AFAIK there have also only be tests or prototypes, at best.