Firing the STEN gun

Nick · March 23, 2020, 03:18:56 AM

The Sten gun (Shepherd, Turpin, ENfield) was designed to be mass produced by car parts manufacturers or small workshops using basic and easily acquired materials. It's amazingly simple when you see how it comes apart.
Everyone in Europe used it, even the Germans made 10,000 copies.

https://youtu.be/jt70ilN_PgU

perttime · March 23, 2020, 03:56:34 AM

From personal limited experience, full auto fire from a handheld firearm can be hard to control, unless you hold it just right. A simple blowback mechanism with a heavy chunk of metal moving back and forth is probably the worst for controlability.

Weaver · March 23, 2020, 04:41:52 AM

Ahh, Hickok "interesting" 45....

The other reason the UK wanted something other than the Tommy Gun was because Thompson was absolutely nailing our hats on price-wise for them.

It wasn't recommended to hold the magazine like he was doing, because the feed lips were weak and holding the mag for long eventually bent them and caused feed problems. The determination to correct this led to the Stirling's magazine, which is probably one of the best SMG mags ever designed.

Ian at Forgotten Weapons did an overviewof British SMG development here, followed by individiual videos on his channel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-PmLxkOmaM

Individual videos should be somewhere on this playlist:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pM7QVbMx1Eo&list=PL9e3UCcU00TS0RHYvm0DSvAWu9gxU78vs

Weaver · March 23, 2020, 04:45:38 AM

Quote from: perttime on March 23, 2020, 03:56:34 AM
From personal limited experience, full auto fire from a handheld firearm can be hard to control, unless you hold it just right. A simple blowback mechanism with a heavy chunk of metal moving back and forth is probably the worst for controlability.

Ian at Forgotten Weapons has fired a lot of SMGs now, and found wide variations in controllability. His theory is that it's a function of the rate of fire, the mass of the bolt, and the resonant frequency of the whole gun. Get those three things in the right relationship and an SMG can be pretty smooth. Get them out of sych, and yep, it'll be all over the place.

Of course, this is why H&K MP-5s are so accurate: the roller-delayed system means the bolt can be much lighter and firing from a closed bolt gives higher muzzle velocity.

PR19_Kit · March 23, 2020, 05:08:06 AM

The Sten had an irritating habit of slicing off the top joint of the firer's left little finger if you held the weapon in the officially approved way. Your finger tip could slip into the loading chamber and as the bolt came forward it would chop it off.

My Dad suffered exactly that problem after some time carting Stens about in WWII.

Old Wombat · March 23, 2020, 05:38:11 AM

Most troops held it by the magazine feed chute, rather than the magazine, but had to be careful not to accidentally press the magazine release & drop out the mag while they were firing.

Owen gun was a much better weapon!

Weaver · March 23, 2020, 06:12:49 AM

Yep - it's been said that the best way to hold a Sten is to not hold a Sten...

Forgotten Weapons on Aussie SMGs:

Owen - History/stripdown: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_3AoDf7CeE
Owen - Shooting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1aZuAbgjGY
Austen Mk.1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qf6XALbTnik
Austen Mk.2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceFLRGiWlW4
F1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaBZC9t9Q3o

perttime · March 23, 2020, 08:04:59 AM

Some people need no full-auto:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLk1v5bSFPw

Jery Miculek is still pretty handy with a revolver, and all sorts of other firearms.

The Rat · March 23, 2020, 08:33:37 AM

Fired the Sten a few times, and the Stirling 9mm SMG many many times. If you wanted accuracy on a range, the method for controlling the upward action was to place the stock firmly in the lower abdomen, left hand on top of the barrel to push down, and fire short bursts. Yes, you needed good stomach muscles, and after a time you really felt like you had spent some time in the ring taking body shots from a heavyweight!

Quote from: PR19_Kit on March 23, 2020, 05:08:06 AM
The Sten had an irritating habit of slicing off the top joint of the firer's left little finger if you held the weapon in the officially approved way. Your finger tip could slip into the loading chamber and as the bolt came forward it would chop it off.

My Dad suffered exactly that problem after some time carting Stens about in WWII.

Stirling could do the same thing, but there was a projection immediately ahead of the ejector hole to prevent it. Place your pinkie finger right against it and you were safe. If you couldn't feel it, unsafe.

Weaver · March 23, 2020, 05:54:51 PM

Quote from: The Rat on March 23, 2020, 08:33:37 AM
Stirling could do the same thing, but there was a projection immediately ahead of the ejector hole to prevent it. Place your pinkie finger right against it and you were safe. If you couldn't feel it, unsafe.

The Stirling also had a lot more barrel jacket to get hold of. The Sten gave you virtually no choice but be up against the ejection port.

rickshaw · March 23, 2020, 08:37:41 PM

I've only fired the Owen Gun, the Austen and the F1 SMGs. Of all of them, I preferred the Owen Gun. It was slightly heavier than either of the other ones and extremely reliable. The F1 was next and last was the Austen. The Austen was a strange blend of the Sten and the MP-40 and was manufactured by diecasters. It was very prone to stoppages. It was an appalling weapon really and you can see why it was rejected by the Australian Army and was really only given away to various resistance groups in the Pacific (and the RAAF for some strange reason).

When I fired the Owen and the Austen, they were held (illegally) by the Range Control at a certain rifle range. They spent most of their lives on the Mess Wall, with their bolts inserted. If you were "in" with the Range Control staff, they would occasionally take them off the wall and out to the range and fire them. Before you were allowed to fire them you had to undergo an abbreviated safety instruction which included stripped and assembling. You were taught with the Austen to hold it by the cooling jacket or the forward grip, not by the magazine. Only in Hollywood or Battle Comics do they hold it that way. The Magazine used to wobble, which made it even less accurate.

The F1 was the SMG then in use by the Australian Army. It was an interesting and very simple weapon. The magazine was the same as used on the Stirling but mounted on top. I used to instruct on recruit courses for the ARes (Army Reserve roughly equivalent to the UK Territorials). One of the fun parts of firing it was cutting down a Figure 11 target by firing not at the target but rather at it's base where a wooden post held it up. Of course the Recruits were forbidden to do that.

McColm · March 24, 2020, 02:25:33 AM

When I was in the Territorial Army back in 1984 I got to fire the MkV until it jammed which was standard practice, whilst firing the Bren gun the kick was a forward motion.

rickshaw · March 24, 2020, 02:34:57 AM

Quote from: McColm on March 24, 2020, 02:25:33 AM
When I was in the Territorial Army back in 1984 I got to fire the MkV until it jammed which was standard practice, whilst firing the Bren gun the kick was a forward motion.

The Bren was an interesting weapon. I fired it in both .303in and 7.62mm. The .303in was more accurate, always throwing it's rounds high and to the right. The 7.62mm version threw them all over the place. When I learned to fire it in .303in we were taught to keep our legs together and dig our toes in to the ground because of it's forward movement. When I learnt again on the 7.62mm version we were taught just keep our legs apart and and feet flat the ground. It still moved forward but we were taught to always say, "one thousand, two thousand" when we pressed the trigger to get a five round burst from it and there was never enough forward movement to worry about.

Weaver · March 24, 2020, 03:24:09 AM

I've read that the .303 Bren was so accurate that it was actually regarded as a minor DISadvantage, since, as an LMG, it was supposed to be creating a beaten zone, not drilling through a point target. I imagine that in practice the accuracy sometimes came in handy though.

PR19_Kit · March 24, 2020, 05:13:28 AM

Brens, now we're talking!

While in the CCF at school I had occasion to shoot quite a few Brens that we had in the armoury, and as H has said it was very accurate, chambered for .303 anyway. I liked it so much I suggested that our Shooting Team, of which I was a member, enter the Public School's LMG Trophy at Bisley that year, and we did. Our Quartermaster sorted out a whole lot of ammo that was about to be time expired so my #2 and I got to practice with the best of the weapons quite a bit.

Come the day at Bisley we were one of maybe a dozen teams, and we started at 800 yds firing half a magazine at 1000 yd targets. Then we had to run down to the 600 yd marker and fire off the other half, and then change the barrel. Then we ran down to 400 yds and fired off another half a mag, and then down to 200yds of course.

We were still firing at the 1000 yd target, which looked ENORMOUS at 200 yds, but by then we were so knackered that that was difficult to stay in the aim!

But we did win the event. The extra training was well worth it.