What If Argentina did go Axis during WWII ?

[Geoff_B]

Just thinking of the theme and the fact that both Brazil & Mexico thought for the allies in WWII in both the Pacific Front & Western Europe.

What-If Argentina decided to side with the Axis, providing support, attacking the Falklands to close the route round the Horn and possibly influencing some of the other South American states to join in. The net result being elements of WWII being waged upon the South American continent.

Possibly have it as the last bastion of the Axis rather than just the refuge. Need the Historians to sort out whats possible and whats not, but it could create an interesting sub theme to the build ?

Not sure  , what do you guys think ?

Geoff B

[Radish]

Nice one.

Those Bv-222 Flying boats?
Argentine Bf-109G-10s, K-4s etc.

Argentine Tirpitz?

Argentine Stukas?
Argentine He-117s?

Some nifty schemes needed thopugh. The natural metal plus washed out roundels look all together too pale.
Except for a winter camouflaged Ta-152!!
Or Fw-190D with a Ta-152 tail, like the Revell 1/32nd monster!



And I'll "bare" anything for free!!

[Mike Wren]

sounds good Thor, the first idea my boss had when we were thinking up the theme for the comp was for a Me 262 in Argentine markings...

[Swamphen]

the first idea my boss had when we were thinking up the theme for the comp was for a Me 262 in Argentine markings...

Hey! That's my idea!  B)  

[NARSES2]

Well for what it's worth here's the background to the Western Hemisphere part of my alt WWII scenario. Some of you who got the "missing" SIG newsletter will have seen it.

TROUBLE ON THE CANAL – The Creation of Greater Mexico – or what to do with all those lovely mid war aircraft in the loft!

Tension and conflict between Mexico and the USA went back earlier then the war of 1846/1848, but that had been the first actual fighting. After the loss of substantive territories in the treaties that followed, Mexico had quietly simmered whilst it's larger neighbour constantly meddled in it's internal affairs. This had come to a head during the Agrarian Revolution of 1910/1917 when the US had connived in the assassination of the Mexican President, and then invaded the north of the country on the pretence of raids into Texas by the Zaparista's. The Zimmerman telegram had raised tensions to a higher level but these had eased somewhat with the ending of the Great War and the 1920's had seen a gradual raproachment between the two countries with much increased US investment. That had changed with the crash of 1929 and as the political situation in Mexico changed during the 1930's the old thirst for what the Mexican people saw as justice had risen it's head again.

The election of Jose Phillipe Don Fox in 1932 had given fresh impetus to that quest. Educated in France and Italy, Fox had been greatly impressed by the Mussolini reforms and had imported the Italian brand of Fascism into Mexico. This combination of nationalism and socialism had seen a revival in Mexican fortunes, so much so that Fox's government was able to offer both moral, political and some minor military support to Franco during the Spanish Civil War. This was now reaping it's true dividends as the Fascist regimes of Europe had gradually helped Mexico build up and modernise it's armed forces during the late 1930's, early 1940's, particularly the airforce. With the US now in crisis due to it's recent heavy defeats in the Pacific at the hands of the Japanese, it was time to exercise this new found "muscle" with the long planned absorption of the rest of Central America into Greater Mexico. A natural ally here was Colombia who had her own axe to grind over the long lost territory of Panama.

The first part of the Mexican plan, codename Jaguar, called for a push south into Guatemala, skirting British Honduras for now, then through Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua and Costa Rica. This sounded ambitious but in reality should be fairly easily achieved and no serious opposition was expected. The governments, or families in some cases, which ruled these countries could either be bullied or bribed into joining the Central American Union, in reality Greater Mexico. Once this had been achieved, and the planers allowed a month for this, then the push into Panama could start. This would be a two pronged assault, with the Mexican's advancing from the North and the Colombians from the south. This was the risky part of the operation, as although there was no immediate plan to take the canal, the American's attitude to all of this operation was as yet unsure, although with their current troubles in the Pacific and on the West Coast it was though that they wouldn't want to further extend themselves.

The forces committed to Jaguar were to a large extent governed by the nature of the terrain over which they were to operate. In the main, phase one would be an infantry war, with some light armour pushing on down the few good roads in the region. The bulk of Mexico's new armour would be retained on the northern border facing the US. The Air Force had a very important role to play in the forthcoming operations, both militarily and psychologically, flying ahead of the ground forces to subdue any opposition. One of the first operations of this yet untried force would be to eliminate the few Guatemalan P.26's. This would hopefully be done whilst they were on the ground, but if they got into the air they would be overwhelmed.

The Mexican Airforce had gradually been built up over the last five years; mainly from Italian and Spanish sources but latterly with some German assistance channelled through Spain. It was a powerful force in terms of the region and its order of battle on the eve of Jaguar was as follows: -

First Air Brigade – This constituted the bulk of Mexico's medium bomber force along with its integral fighter and reconnisance elements. The bombers came from the 1st and 2nd Bomber regiments and were equipped with Fiat BR20's of various marks. Paper strength was thirty aircraft, with twenty-three available for Jaguar. Their escorts would come from the 1st Fighter Wing who's 1st and 2nd regiments were equipped with Fiat CR42's and the 3rd with Heinkel He51's. Their primary job was to sweep the skies clear for the bombers and then as a secondary mission to strafe targets of opportunity. The reconnaissance element of this force was provided by the 1st Observation Group with a mix of BR20's and Romeo Ro 37's. After the initial assault on airbases and army camps this force would be retained as a "persuader" in case any of the countries offered stiffer resistance then expected. The Mexican's had learned the lessons of Guerneica.

Second Air Brigade – This was the tactical support element of the force and was equipped with numerous types for this purpose. The protective fighter cover would again be provided by three regiments of CR42' and He51's from the 2nd Fighter Wing, although in this case the single regiment of Heinkels was equipped with light bomb racks. The strike element of the force was formed by the 1st Storm Group, consisting of a light and a heavy regiment. The light regiment had recently been equipped with 35 Henschel Hs123's supplied from surplus Spanish stocks, whilst the heavy regiment consisted of 28 Breda BA 65's. The highly important reconnaissance element came from the 2nd Observation Group with three flights of Ro37's and one flight of Henschel Hs126's. This latter element was also tasked with artillery observation and had 15 aircraft for the purpose.

On top of these major elements two flights of He59 floatplanes for use in coastal patrol and reconnaissance were made available for Jaguar. However the pride of Mexico's Airforce, its 3rd Fighter Wing, consisting of two regiments of  Me109D's were assigned to the group of northern forces positioned to keep a wary eye on the US. They were still in the process of working up and were not yet ready for action, although their sheer presence was considered enough to deter any intervention from the very weak US forces stationed on border.

For phase two of the operation, the push into Panama, its Colombian allies would join this already impressive force. Although to an extent equipped with obsolete types it would still provide assorted Boeing and Grumman fighters and some Douglas Bolo reconnaissance bombers, However the Colombians could provide one squadron of Vickers Venom fighters. This eight-gun monoplane had lost out to the Hurricane in RAF service but Vickers had sold eighteen aircraft to Colombia prior to the outbreak of war in Europe and the subsequent suspension of all export sales. Known as La Rana, the Frog, in Colombian service because of the eye like observation window/ bulges it was never the less one of the most modern fighter types available in the region. These would be used to patrol the southern side of the Canal Zone in order to deter the few P35's and P36's left there when the USAAC withdrew the bulk of it's equipment back to the West Coast.

These then were the forces preparing to launch Operation Jaguar. The date chosen was 1st April 1942, All Fools Day, once the ground had dried from the winter rains. It remained to be seen who would be the fools?

[nev]

Very good back story Chris - believable too

What kind of armour are the Mexicans equipped with?  I'm thinking maybe Panzer Is and Panzer IIs?

Hmmm, I've got a Panzer II in the stash, wondering what to do to make it "mexican".....    

[NARSES2]

Nev

Thanks for he comments.

As for armour I envisage the Mexican's to have been re-armed with Pz I's and a few Pz II's from German stocks plus Italian Tankettes and a few mediums from the same source. They will also have a large number of ex Italian armoured cars - something they were very good at designing/building. For AT defence it will mainly be a mix of german 37mm's, Italian Breda's and captured French Bofor's and Hotckiss guns.

Colombian's and some of the other S American nations would mainly have armoured cars (some very much "home made") with a few Vickers types from the mid 30's.

Apart from dust shields for northern operations and maybe extra stowed fuel tanks, I don't think you'd need much else for a Mexican Pz II.

Of course you could say that the German's sent them a lot of captured French equipment ?

Until and unless war breaks out on the US border armoured vehicles would have little part to play in this scenario given the terrain and vegetation in this part of the world. Also US armour at or around this time left a lot to be desired in terms of equipment and operational procedures (not withstanding what Patton had tried to achieve in the Louisiana manouvers). It would mainly of been used in urban policing roles - anathma nowadays but quite likely then.

[Swamphen]

Hey Chris, that's one cool scenario mate!  

Now when do we get "the rest of the story"?  B)  

[dragon]

I don't know, but I would think that the Colombians would put up some flak over the Mexicans owning Panama.  Up until 1903 Panama was part of Colombia (and not an independant Republic).  Wouldn't the Colombians still be somewhat sore over this, motivating Colombia to join the Mexicans at war against the US (in this scenario)?  They wouldn't want to give up the real estate again.  

[NARSES2]

With the historical Mexican love of minorities, this would leave a population in the south of Mexico that would probably not take kindly to an even further right wing government than normal. (Where the Zapatistas are based over the last 10 years or so RL). These could be recruted by the US to raise revolution in the Mexican rear areas with a promise of independence. ?Rebel aircraft, or AVG in Mexico???
Nicoragua would also have been ripe for going Fascist due to the seizure of the common land and the left wing rebelion fought there in the late '20s and early '30s. So would the Soviets have tried to send equipment like they did in Spain?

Geoff

I know Fascism is considered to be right-wing but I'm not sure the Italian brand, as opposed to Nazism, was ? In theory it was a mixture of nationalism and socialism, and in the early days (the 1920's) probably was in actuality as well. The problem was that the structure of Italian society was, probably still is, unable to sustain it. Therefore I see this type of goverment initialy appealing to the majority of Mexican's given their obvious nationalism (fueled by ill-feeling towards the US), and their history of revolutionary socialist ideas. I'm not sure about the deep south of Mexico with it's more "conservative" native population though.

Chris  

[NARSES2]

Hey Chris, that's one cool scenario mate!  

Now when do we get "the rest of the story"?  B)

Thanks Swampy - part two is being written now and is promised to Martin for publication in the SIG Newsletter. Once that's done I'll post here as well

Chris

[NARSES2]

I don't know, but I would think that the Colombians would put up some flak over the Mexicans owning Panama.  Up until 1903 Panama was part of Colombia (and not an independant Republic).  Wouldn't the Colombians still be somewhat sore over this, motivating Colombia to join the Mexicans at war against the US (in this scenario)?  They wouldn't want to give up the real estate again.

Exactly Dragon. The US fermented revolt in the Colombian province of Panama in order to gain access to the Isthmus after the Colombian's had wanted a financial stake in the Panama Canal.

In my scenario they join the Mexican's on the assault on Central America in order to regain this territory. There aim is to regain Panama, whilst the Mexican's are prepared to settle for the rest of Central America.

The Canal Zone is another matter and you will have to wait for part two to see how that unfolds.

Chris

[Joe C-P]

I'll have to look up what was left of the German Navy post-WW2 - maybe one or three of the remaining ships, and especially some of the later U-boats escaped south...  

As for Mexico vs. the US, this is an intriguing alternate history with much potential, and I'm looking forward to what you come up with.  B)

JoeP

[dragon]

Check out Arnulfo Arias Madrid (President of Panama during the 1940s) here.  According to my Grandfather (who lived during the time period in question) Arnulfo Arias sympathized with the Nazis and saw himself as Latin America's Hitler.  Unfortunately for Arias, he couldn't pursue the Jewish populace of Panama, since they formed his powerbase at that time.  Unfortunately he went after the asian populace in Panama.  The Asians living in Panama at the time got stripped of a lot of their rights and property.  
    One also has to remember that Coco Solo NS was a primary training spot for the submarine force at that time.  

[Joe C-P]

Check out Arnulfo Arias Madrid (President of Panama during the 1940s) here.  According to my Grandfather (who lived during the time period in question) Arnulfo Arias sympathized with the Nazis and saw himself as Latin America's Hitler.
One also has to remember that Coco Solo NS was a primary training spot for the submarine force at that time.

Agreement or no, the US was not going to let some tinpot Hitler take control of the Canal during WW2. Mr. Arias would have found himself without a job and likely with a much shorter lifespan very quickly if he had threatened American interests. However...

Perhaps Mr. Arias makes a deal with the Nazis to have some of his aircraft bomb the gates to disable them as some large vessel or vessels are transiting. Just a frieghter or tanker or three, so there's no direct attack on the USN or merchant marine; they could even plant some insignificant Nazi-marked materials aboard. If a couple locks were blocked, several US ships could be bottled up. Arias would claim he received bad intelligence about those ships, and some low-ranking flight commander and the pilots could be sacked for attacking the ships while in the locks.

This could block the canal for weeks, no matter what the US did subsequently to the Arias government, and keep important ships bottled up and out of the fight. This mostly would affect the Pacific battles; early on the loss of even a couple capital ships would have severely hampered the USN's fighting capability.