WE177 trolleys, Vulcans and the end of the world.

[The Wooksta!]

Are there any specific trollies for these?  I can get a pair of WE177s from Freightdog and obviously, there's the new Vulcan coming out from Airfix.

Reason I ask is that I'd like to do Vulcan XM594 in an armed condition as part of a Cold War Hot scenario as depicted here:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/the-last-flight-of-xm594-a-p-s-spin-off.216859/

There's a few other questions:

Chaff/flare dispensers - did Vulcan ever carry these?  If so, where on the airframe?  Edit:  yes, and somewhere in the wing, the Tony Buttler Aerofax book says, but not where.  That's good enough for me.  I don't have to add extra bits.

Was XM594 one of the B2s plumbed for Skybolt?  I'm toying with adding Shrikes but they're not mentioned so I may give it a miss.

Finally, is the new Airfix Vulcan coming with the bomb bay overload fuel tanks?  The proposed "pathfinder" has two in the bomb bay, fore and aft with four 1,000lb "Target Markers" and I'm assuming these are buckets of instant sunshine (although I only need two, for use on a soviet airbase and a marshalling yard near Minsk) and the layout is correct for a freefall nuclear armed Vulcan.

Actually, where's the best place for a reference on WE177 armed Vulcans?  Or is that all still classified?

I'm just wondering now if I have 44 sqn markings and the correct serial...

[Leading Observer]

Did you see that dark car at the end of your road this evening, the one with the two nondescript looking guys in suits.....

[The Wooksta!]

We can laugh about stuff that's nigh on 40 years out of date still being classified but stuff from the Falklands is in 100 year files and a mate tried to get some info on WWII H2S a few years back when he was gathering info for 100 Group aircraft but kept running into "still classified" as, obviously, the same gear had gone into the V-force.

Humour aside, I knew a guy some years back who has a visit from some interesting gadgies from the Isreali embassy after he'd asked one or two suspicious questions about Isreali jet fighters.  It took him a whole to convince them that he was just building models of their aircraft and not some lunatic from ISIS or their 80s equivalents.

[kitnut617]

Doesn't look like anything special does it ?

At Cosford apparently.

[The Wooksta!]

I've seen a photo of a similar trolley underneath a TSR2, it's probably the same one.

TBH, I was expecting something more sophistimacated.  Looks like something lashed up in someone's shed...

I'm also toying with WE177 armed Buccaneers in Germany now too.

[PR19_Kit]

How about this one, filched from this site?  http://www.nuclear-weapons.info/vw.htm

It says it was taken at Marham during trials of the WE177B.

[The Wooksta!]

Thanks, saved that for a rainy day.

The photos are a bit small but certainly useful.  I can get the relevant shapes from Uncle Colin.

[AeroplaneDriver]

Robert Jackson's book "Avro Vulcan" makes mention of Vulcans defeating ground based defences and Mirages on exercise in Australia in 1967 using "ECM going full blast with chaff and jammers they were not supposed to use..."  apparently it caused a bit of a kerfuffel because the jamming made a mess of civilian ATC for a while.  Cant find any picture references, but apparently they did carry chaff (and presumably flares) as far back as the mid 60s. 

edit-Wikipedia mentions the B.2 carrying both chaff and flares with this https://www.amazon.com/Avro-Vulcan-Manual-Onwards-Workshop/dp/1844258319/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?dchild=1&keywords=price+Edmonton+vulcan&qid=1591590423&sr=8-1-fkmr0 as the supporting reference.  Might be worth seeing who has a copy.  Page 112 is the wiki reference. 

Edit again-The amazon listing has a photo of the cutaway showing chaff/flare launchers.  I wont post the pic in case that's a no-no, but click the above link and look at the cutaway pic in the listing.  76 is Chaff/Flare dispensers, they are in the left wing root between the number 1 engine and fuel tanks. 

[NARSES2]

TBH, I was expecting something more sophistimacated.  Looks like something lashed up in someone's shed...

Typically British though 

We can laugh about stuff that's nigh on 40 years out of date still being classified but stuff from the Falklands is in 100 year files and a mate tried to get some info on WWII H2S a few years back when he was gathering info for 100 Group aircraft but kept running into "still classified" as, obviously, the same gear had gone into the V-force.

5 or 6 years ago I was helping a mate research his grandfather's WWI service history at the Public Records Office in Kew and whilst we could get to see the majority of his unit's regimental war diaries one or two were still covered by the 100 year rule. He was in a Heavy Artillery Regiment (9.2") so nothing really secret ? Be interesting to go back now and see what was still classified even then.

[Rheged]

5 or 6 years ago I was helping a mate research his grandfather's WWI service history at the Public Records Office in Kew and whilst we could get to see the majority of his unit's regimental war diaries one or two were still covered by the 100 year rule.

It is possible that the parts of the war diary still under 100 year rule had personal details of a living person that could be taken as " either derogatory or not in their interest to release "  Censuses are not released for 100 years after they were taken for that reason. It is assumed that after 100 years, the person will be dead.  That said, I did once help a colleague show his 103 year old great grandmother her appearance  in the 1901 census.

[Weaver]

Was XM594 one of the B2s plumbed for Skybolt?  I'm toying with adding Shrikes but they're not mentioned so I may give it a miss.

No. According to Tim Laming's book The Vulcan Story, the first Skybolt carrier was the 61st production aircraft, XM597. XM594 was the 58th production aircraft.

[The Wooksta!]

Robert Jackson's book "Avro Vulcan" makes mention of Vulcans defeating ground based defences and Mirages on exercise in Australia in 1967 using "ECM going full blast with chaff and jammers they were not supposed to use..."  apparently it caused a bit of a kerfuffel because the jamming made a mess of civilian ATC for a while.  Cant find any picture references, but apparently they did carry chaff (and presumably flares) as far back as the mid 60s. 

edit-Wikipedia mentions the B.2 carrying both chaff and flares with this https://www.amazon.com/Avro-Vulcan-Manual-Onwards-Workshop/dp/1844258319/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?dchild=1&keywords=price+Edmonton+vulcan&qid=1591590423&sr=8-1-fkmr0 as the supporting reference.  Might be worth seeing who has a copy.  Page 112 is the wiki reference. 

Edit again-The amazon listing has a photo of the cutaway showing chaff/flare launchers.  I wont post the pic in case that's a no-no, but click the above link and look at the cutaway pic in the listing.  76 is Chaff/Flare dispensers, they are in the left wing root between the number 1 engine and fuel tanks. 

Ta for that.  I'd forgotten about that exercise, although IIRC it almost sparked an international incident as teh Aussies were rather miffed about the whole thing, but then again, you'd hardly expect attacking enemy bombers armed with tactical nukes to file a flight plan.

Managed to find a decent sized cutaway elsewhere on t'interweb, but if they're in the wing, that means no external chaff/flare dispensers, which means it's easier to do. 

As for the Skybolt question, given the serial of the airframe I want to do is 594, I'd presume it has the plumbing as 607 did and used it for the Shrike wiring for Black Buck.  Again, there's no mention of Shrikes in the text, although another 44 Sqn aircraft operated at the same time could be equipped for it as it'd give an extra layer of defence.

[Weaver]

Was XM594 one of the B2s plumbed for Skybolt?  I'm toying with adding Shrikes but they're not mentioned so I may give it a miss.

No. According to Tim Laming's book The Vulcan Story, the first Skybolt carrier was the 61st production aircraft, XM597. XM594 was the 58th production aircraft.

Bumping this 'cos we seem to have crossed posts Lee. XM594 did NOT have Skybolt mods.

[The Wooksta!]

Yeah, you posted it just before me.  Not doing 594 with Shrikes anyway as they're not in the text but I've got the decals for the later machines anyway, so a Shrike toting WE177 armed Vulcan is possible, although I may well do it from the older kit, basically as I've several to use up.

[AeroplaneDriver]

I lent my copy to a colleague years ago and never got it back, but IIRC Rowland White's book "Vulcan 607" was pretty detailed on the Shrike mods and how they made it work with mostly existing wiring.