Mirage IV

[retro_seventies]

i LOVE the mirage IV, really.

So, heavy fighter then?  Stick a whopper AI radar in the nose, and some extremely BVR missiles (phoenix? ASMP based aam?) and have a western "fiddler"?  Rather like a French Fairey FDIII in that case?  

Used by who?  Aussies? French (obviously), RAF?  How about Luftwaffe and Canada? Belgium?  Denmark?

YUM.

 

I think i fancy some profiles of this bad boy - i'll make some this week i think...

[Jeffry Fontaine]

I've got a few Mirage IV ideas banging around as well.

Israeli, J-79 engines, Kfir style wing/tail/canards and all new avionics. The cockpit would be revised to be more fighter like and there would be a large underbelly conformal fuel and weapons pack/tank.

EW, EF-111A style canoe aeriel on the fin, under fuselage canoe fairing housing other jamming detection equeipment.

The new F-1 book, "Le Mirage F1" by Michel Liébert and Sébastien Buyck has good project stuff on the IV, the F and the G series mirages. In here there is a three view of a VG Mirage IV development. Though in French, the books worth the asking price for the sheer number of projects that are illustrated by three views and model photo's

Make that a ventral caonoe and the football for your Mirage IV "CE" (Combat de Electronique).  The Martel ARM for the SEAD mission and you would be in business.  

As far as the engines go, the Mirage IV page also mentions a J75 powered Mirage IV which would have had HUGE amounts of thrust available to go that much faster and haul even more.  Not sure how economical that would have been as far as fuel consumption but a pair of J75s on a Mirage is HOT!  

You mention the Mirage F1 and I all of a sudden have a vision of a Mirage IV airframe with F1 style wings mounted on the shoulders and that leaves only the problem of how to fit the main landing gear into the fuselage.  

i LOVE the mirage IV, really.

So, heavy fighter then?  Stick a whopper AI radar in the nose, and some extremely BVR missiles (phoenix? ASMP based aam?) and have a western "fiddler"?  Rather like a French Fairey FDIII in that case? 

Used by who?  Aussies? French (obviously), RAF?  How about Luftwaffe and Canada? Belgium?  Denmark?

YUM.

 

I think i fancy some profiles of this bad boy - i'll make some this week i think...

What I had in mind was more of a heavy fighter attack aircraft, not a fighter interceptor.  The large payload, speed, and range would allow it to perform interdiction missions with more iron on target and still have room for additional things such as the countermeasures pods and of course a couple of dedicated stations for self-defense air to air missiles.  

I know Archibald had proposed an interceptor based on the Mirage IV which would have carried the R530 and most probably the Super R530.  Both of these missiles were very similar to the AIM-7 Sparrow and just like the Sparrow, the early R530 had problems that were almost identical but were later resolved just like the Sparrow to make it an effective weapon.  Would the Mirage IV be able to use the Mica for self-defense?  

Countries that would have stepped up to fly the Mirage IV, well you have named all of the usual suspects, but add to that Pakistan, India, and of course Israel since it would have been configured for carriage of conventional weapons which would not have restricted the sales like an aircraft designed for a nuclear only mission.  

[Archibald]

I won't repeat again what I said over the last two years!!!!    

Just want to mention that I'm reflexionning about building a 1/72 scale Mirage IVB (the scaled-up J-75 machine).

First line of reflexion was to try to use a 1/48 Mirage IV, after all 1/48 is basically a... scaled up 1/72, as the IV-B was a scaled up IV-A  

But after some calculation I understood that idea simply didn't worked.

So another idea has popped up : maybe I could use a TSR-2 fuselage (HERESY, I know...) and graft 1/48 scale Mirage IVA wings on it...
Length and overall proportion of their fuselage were surprisingly similar (long neck, air intakes...).

I would use the TSR-2 exhausts simply because the Olympus was one of the contenders along J-75, Iroquois and RB-142, but also because Concorde used them    

Voila...

Btw I'm a fan of the Mirage IV*, the Spey variant. It open lot of whatifs, including a M-53 upgraded Mirage IVA.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

You mention the Mirage F1 and I all of a sudden have a vision of a Mirage IV airframe with F1 style wings mounted on the shoulders and that leaves only the problem of how to fit the main landing gear into the fuselage

Now that's a cracking idea!

Hmmm, ......... 1/48 F-1 wing maybe?

Possible ideas I do have:

Long Range Interceptor - I see quite of few of us are on the same wavelength here
EW
SEAD


Archi,

an M-53 upgrade is one of the ideas I have been toying with, or maybe M-88? Not sure how the two compare to each other in terms of mass - flow, length/diameter/weight. Or indeed how they compare to the old 9K-50.

As an RAF Spey IV has been done by several others on the forum, personally I am steering clear of that idea. How about TF-30's



O.K.

That would work for a nice Scale-O-Rama effort where you could use the majority of the Esci/Italeri Mirage F1 and bash it with the Heller 1/72nd scale Mirage IV.  The plus side is that you would have the landing gear to equip the Mirage IVF.1 and that would take care of that small issue.  You might have to kit bash a couple of 1/72nd scale Mirage F.1 kits for this project as well so you could get the engine exhaust parts as well.  Need to improve the engines on it while you are at it.  

M35, TF30 or J75 derivatives would be great for this project.  

[Daryl J.]

This has come online since the thread began:

NECP 48043 Dassault Mirage IV (Heller)  1/48 $31.00  NeOmega Resin


BTW
Would any of these possibly be flown by the Republique du Quebec, land of 100% taxation where any dual language pilot would be referred to as a Kannniggit?  


Sorry for the offbeat response, the men in white have just pulled up to the house.


Daryl J.

[Archibald]

Archi,

an M-53 upgrade is one of the ideas I have been toying with, or maybe M-88? Not sure how the two compare to each other in terms of mass - flow, length/diameter/weight. Or indeed how they compare to the old 9K-50.

Not too difficult...

M53 = Spey 300R for thrust and overall dimensions.

About Atar 9K50 and M88, got a comparison in "Science&Vie aviation 2003"
Seems both have same thrust (7200 or 7500 kgp, don't ask me Ibs conversion  tonight please   ) but the M-88 is WAY smaller and lighter, something like 50%, I'll check my source this weekend.

In brief, a M53 Mirage IV would be a derivative of the Mirage IVK with redesigned intakes and exhaust.

But a M88 Mirage IV could probably be a more straightforward derivative of the basic Mirage IVA!!!

That's give us two lines developement  for this marvellous machine  

Btw a swept-Mirage F1-winged Mirage IV would look strikingly similar (albeit slightly scaled-up)  to the ACF of 1975    

[Archibald]

Backstory won't be too difficult to find, no embargo against Israel circa 1967-1969 leave the competion for Vautour replacement open to France.
So competiors are Tsiklon and an upgraded Mirage IVA, IAI being heavily involved in both projects.
The Mirage IV is chosen as supersonic, then the USA bite the idea after failure of the F-111A, allowing Israel to use the J-79 for the project, and later the PW-1120...

[Jeffry Fontaine]

The Mirage IV with the Kfir wings and canards could become the Mirage IV (NG).  Both of these really need a nose mounted radar and the IFR probe moved to another location on the fuselage.  It could be changed to a retracting unit or left as a fixed appendage.

[Archibald]

Another interesting build would be to "scale-down" a Mirage IVA to change it into a Mirage IVC.
I mean, cut a large chunk of fuselage length (15 feet) and span (10 feet)  to reduce overall size, result  would be a Phantom competitor in the late 50's.
Well, that was Dassault wanted  circa 1956, before french governement decided in favor of Mirage IIIA, the twin-jet machine becoming a pure bomber.

Btw I love this high-swept wing Mirage IV    

[GTX]

How about a Mirage IV in a max anti shipping load out - say something like 4 or even 6 (double or triple launch rail) Exocets under the wings and a large fuel tank on the centreline.

For an even more wicked idea, make it Argentine!!!

Regards,

Greg

[Martin H]

How about a Mirage IV in a max anti shipping load out - say something like 4 or even 6 (double or triple launch rail) Exocets under the wings and a large fuel tank on the centreline.

For an even more wicked idea, make it Argentine!!!

Regards,

Greg

now that would be interesting

[Archibald]

As an aside, how about the using the IV as a basis for a French SR-71-alike? I'm thinking somewhat like the RF-4X proposal, water/methanol intake injection and boosted engines for Mach 3 plus dash speed. Maybe have a big conformal belly tank for the water/methanol. One idea that keeps coming back to me is ammonia boosting, there was a brief period of testing back in the early jet era IIRC.

Now that's an idea!  
The AdA already loved its Mirage IV in the recon role, flying them to the edge of their range over African theaters.

Btw a fuel tank would fit easily into the bomb "hole" .
In fact you can put a lot of thing in this recess, AN-52, recon pod, buddy-buddy pod, ECM pod.
These are "real world" loads.
But one can invent non-standard loads, such as conformal fuel tank, rocket-fuel tank (for this rocket engine which boost height and acceleration)  water/methanol tank, and so on.
for the Mirage IVX, maybe the water could go on underwing drop tanks, and methanol into the AN-52 recess.
Firebombing Mirage IV would be cool  

French ASAT launcher

This one is particularly interesting. In fact we currently discuss the Minerve program on the Secret projects board.
This were 1959-1964 studies for the 2nd generation nuclear triade. Among various project was a TF-106 powered Mirage IV which had a mini-skybolt under the belly.
This could be a good basis for an ASAT Mirage IV...  

[GTX]

How about a French research Mirage IV fitted with a ONERA Promethee or similar high mach research vehicle:



Regards,

Greg

[Archibald]

How about a French research Mirage IV fitted with a ONERA Promethee or similar high mach research vehicle:



Regards,

Greg

... In CEV colors (high-viz) with a big SEPR rocket motor to boost height up to
75 000 ft before release    

[Daryl J.]

MirageIV as the mother ship for a French UAV controlled from the second seat---hypersonic interceptor....one way to boot.

TSR.2 refueler?


Uh...would "hypersonic" be said "Eye-bair-Zonn-eeg"?
Daryl J., who just heard "Kaniggits!" again on YouTube