HMS Bristol has been retired

[Nick]

After nearly half a century the White Ensign has finally been hauled down aboard HMS Bristol. The only Type 82 destroyer in the Royal Navy has seen her last days as a floating classroom.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/37318/britains-cold-war-era-monster-destroyer-has-finally-been-retired

[Weaver]

Funny how she always gets described as an 'oversized white elephant', yet every US Navy destroyer that entered service after her was the same size or bigger, the Type 45s are about the same size and even the new Type 26 frigates are in the same size range. In many ways, she was ahead of her time rather than a dead end.

[PR19_Kit]

I recall seeing the Bristol more than a few times when taking the ferries from Portsmouth to France. She was moored up, during her accommodation, role just opposite the ferry terminal. It seemed a sad life for such a capable ship.

[zenrat]

The link says she is the second oldest commissioned ship in the Royal Navy.  What's the oldest?
Is HMS Victory still commissioned?

[kitbasher]

The link says she is the second oldest commissioned ship in the Royal Navy.  What's the oldest?
Is HMS Victory still commissioned?

I think it is, Kit.  Certainly has a captain.

A very long time ago an old school mate was a rating on the Bristol.  'In support of a Caribbean cruise' a swimming pool was rigged up somewhere on the main deck and fake palms deployed during official cocktail parties. 

Bristol didn't have a great serviceability record - I recall said mate(lot) sending me one of a small run of specially-commissioned t-shirts commemorating a Floating Lock Jetty cruise.  the originators got into a lot of trouble for getting them printed.  Bad for morale, floggings all round, etc!

[PR19_Kit]

The link says she is the second oldest commissioned ship in the Royal Navy.  What's the oldest?
Is HMS Victory still commissioned?

I think it is, Kit.  Certainly has a captain.

That'd be Fred actually, but no matter. 

I recall that the Victory is still a 'ship of the line', yes. Like the USS Constitution in Boston Harbour.

[Captain Canada]

Should have kept her afloat for 3 more years ! Always sad, but all good things must come to an end......

[kitbasher]

That'd be Fred actually, but no matter. 

oops!

[NARSES2]

Yup H.M.S. Victory is still a commissioned ship of the fleet *

I recall reading somewhere that one of the reasons she was still commissioned was because the de-commissioning pennant would be so long there'd be nowhere to raise it 

* Often wondered what her captain thought when that famous phone call was made from Maggie Thatcher's office at No 10 in 1982. "Prepare the Fleet for Sea" 

[sideshowbob9]

I think the white elephant label was mainly due to her propulsion. In another context, I'd be all for keeping steam around but for a warship, it was getting a bit old-hat even at the time of Bristol's conception. She also seemed a little under-armed to me.

She's had a good run though! Hopefully she'll be expended as a target for an Astute. Better than the breakers!

As for Victory's paying-off pennant, never thought of that! 

[Weaver]

I think the white elephant label was mainly due to her propulsion. In another context, I'd be all for keeping steam around but for a warship, it was getting a bit old-hat even at the time of Bristol's conception. She also seemed a little under-armed to me.

She's had a good run though! Hopefully she'll be expended as a target for an Astute. Better than the breakers!

As for Victory's paying-off pennant, never thought of that! 

At the time of Bristol's introduction, the vast majority of the ships in the RN were steam-powered, including 15 (Tribals and Counties) with COSAG powerplants like Bristol, so I don't think steam was the problem per se, although there were clearly problems with Bristol's plant, which was a new one-off design. The 'white elephant' jibe was being levelled at her from new, before any large pure gas-turbine ships entered service, so I think it was more a matter of slagging-off the thing they just cancelled in order to justify it's replacement.

In terms of armament, she compared pretty well to something like a USN Belknap class cruiser. Both had 40 big SAMs, both had 20 ASW missiles, both had a medium calibre gun, and both had a short-range ASW weapon( Limbo/torpedoes). Fair criticism of Bristol could point to the obsolescence of Limbo, although it should be remembered that the performance of Mk.44/46 torpedoes wasn't great at the time either. You could also point to the Belknap's two twin 3" guns, although those were removed in the 1970s, and Bristol was (easily) fitted with enhanced light AAA after the Falklands.

Another fair point would be that the Belknaps had a helicopter, and this is one of the most consistent criticisms of Bristol, since you can see any number of ways to work one (or two) into the design. Other US ships with a similar role (Leahys and Coontzs) didn't have a helo, but they preceded the Belknap so you could say it was a lesson learned by the USN but ignored by the RN. The decision not to have one stemmed from the ship's original role as a carrier escort, where it would be paired with a helo+Sea-Dart-armed 'command cruiser' (the origin of the Invincibles) to escort an CVA-01 aircraft carrier. The Command Cruiser was supposed to take the ASW helo squadron that would otherwise have had to be accomodated on the carrier, thus freeing up space on the latter for more fixed-wing. Having all the helos on one through-deck ship instead of split between two Vittorio Veneto-style ships was judged to be more efficient for maintenance and flight ops.

[Doug K]

I always thought she was a pretty ship, better than the Counties...

[PR19_Kit]

The Command Cruiser was supposed to take the ASW helo squadron that would otherwise have had to be accomodated on the carrier, thus freeing up space on the latter for more fixed-wing. Having all the helos on one through-deck ship instead of split between two Vittorio Veneto-style ships was judged to be more efficient for maintenance and flight ops.

Plans like that are all very good in theory, but tend to fall apart when you remove one of the key components, like the strike carrier!

[sideshowbob9]

Hmmmm...well if it were up to me, I still think for her size, she could have found room for another Sea Dart launcher, even if they shared a magazine. That would make for a long bow but I've never had an issue with large fineness ratios.

Alternatively, leave the ASW weaponry for the frigates. Since she'd be in company with a carrier, I'm certain space could be found for some Wessex aboard the CV so Bristol could be made a double-ender.

I also maintain that her steam plant was approaching anachronistic by her lay-down date. COGOG would be my preference for commonality with the slightly later  Type 21s & 42s. Exmouth after all tested the Oly FOR Bristol so I don't see why Bristol couldn't emulate her COGOG arrangement (although with Tynes rather than Proteusi).

I don't think any of the above requires hindsight. I also don't think what we got resulted in a bad ship but this wouldn't be a what-if site without a bit of harmless speculation.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't change a thing about post-war RN frigates, but their cruiser policy? Oy.

[Weaver]

The Command Cruiser was supposed to take the ASW helo squadron that would otherwise have had to be accomodated on the carrier, thus freeing up space on the latter for more fixed-wing. Having all the helos on one through-deck ship instead of split between two Vittorio Veneto-style ships was judged to be more efficient for maintenance and flight ops.

Plans like that are all very good in theory, but tend to fall apart when you remove one of the key components, like the strike carrier!

No plan survives contact with a) the enemy, or b) your own politicians...

It only sort-of fell apart, in that the Command Cruisers became the new ASW carriers for the new, North-Atlantic-NATO-focussed Royal Navy of the 1970s. What makes zero sense to me was the argument that the cancellation of the carriers made the Type 82s obsolete, but the RN still needed a class of cheaper, smaller DDGs. Didn't the Invincibles need escorting too? Wern't the Type 42 going to do just that?