New Westland Secret Projects book available 29/4/24

[Weaver]

Here's a paper newly published on the Royal Aeronautical Society website detailing Westland's work on attack helicopter. Very interesting, and lots of what-if potential:

https://www.aerosociety.com/media/15007/paper-2020-05-westland-and-the-attack-helicopters-from-lynx-to-apache.pdf

RAS website: https://www.aerosociety.com/

[kitnut617]

All of that has been on the Secret Projects Forum for quite some time Harold --

[Weaver]

All of that has been on the Secret Projects Forum for quite some time Harold --

Some of the pictures may have been (there are way more in the paper) but the paper itself has just been pubished, on 31oct2020. It includes a detailed discussion of the design processes, requirements, competitions and evaluations that led from the Lynx to the AH-64E, and much of that is allegedly new.

I'm afraid I can't check Secret Projects these days: the site won't work for me, probably because it no longer likes my aged PC and/or software.

[PR19_Kit]

A pity that they never got the chance to build any of them.

[chrisonord]

That W.G 13 looks like a back dated RAH-66 comanche.

[Weaver]

That W.G 13 looks like a back dated RAH-66 comanche.

Some of the later Westland studies basically invented features that subsequently appeared in the Comanche. The angled fuselage sides and the the internal weapon bays are the examples that spring to mind.

[kitnut617]

Yeah, and here's the latest offering which Bell is pushing.

[PR19_Kit]

They all look similar, don't they?

[chrisonord]

That Bell offering looks just a tad  like a  comanche, why are they  trying to  flog this if the Comanche  did the same job, and got canned.  Was it canned because  the Hulk managed to  destroy some of them
Chris

[Weaver]

Comanche got cancelled due to a 'death spiral':

1. Reducing numbers ('peace dividend') leading to:
2. Increased unit costs, leading to:
3. Stretched out programme with fewer prototypes, leading to:
4. Requirement creep as environment and experience change, leading to:
5. More scrutiny and questions asked, leading to .... go back to 1.
6. Continue looping 1 to 5 until somebody pulls the plug.

The Army's official statement on cancellation of the Comanche was that rising costs, tech issues and a new focus on drones combined to make it less affordable or desirable, and they were going to spend the money saved on drones plus revamps of existing helos. Now it's 15 years later and those revamped helos are going to be looking very long in the tooth unless they do something, so now they've launched Future Vertical Lift, which looks to replace ALL their helos in the next decade.

Since the Apache is also up for replacement (which it wasn't at the time Comanche was conceived) The Bell Invictus (or it's Boeing/Sikorsky competitor) looks like it's been sized to eventually replace it, as well as the OH-58 which it's officially supposed to replace. I've been trying to get my head around the US programme to see whether they're going to launch a separate Apache replacement or not, but frankly it's clear as mud.

One consistent problem with 'scout' helicopters (Westland had this with it's studies too) is that when you ask the Army (UK or US) what they want to replace their small, cheap scout helicopters (Sioux/Gazelle) with, they inevitably write a gold-plated spec that features high speed, stealth, armour, huge sensor fit and internal weapons, the only concession to 'smallness and cheapness' being to initially leave out a gun. Then somebody decides that it's ridiculous to have such an expensive & capable helicopter with so few weapons, so the gun goes back on and unstealthy optional weapon wings are added. The manufacturers then produce their proposals, the Army immediately complain that it's too big, expensive and complicated, and politicians/media accuse them of trying to procure a new attack helicopter by the back door. So it all goes back for more studies and the can gets kicked down the road until the cycle goes around again...

The fundamental problem is that Apache-style attack helicopters, despite being categorized as 'heavy' and seen as the equivalent of tanks, are really the minimum-sized platforms neccessary to carry two crew, armour, full sensors, a gun, rockets and eight(ish) missiles. The only reason that OH-58s, Gazelles et al are smaller than Apaches is that they leave out some of those things. Once you add them, the weight goes up, which means the installed horsepower goes up, which means the rotor size goes up, which means the tailboom gets longer etc, etc and you're well on your way to Apachedom.

[kitnut617]

That Bell offering looks just a tad  like a  comanche, why are they  trying to  flog this if the Comanche  did the same job

"Low Observability" Chris.  I thinks it's a continuation of what they (they being the US Government) have been experimenting with which resulted in the much modified H-60 Blackhawk which the world got wind of when one crashed in the Bin Laden compound and a bunch of photos of it appeared in public.

[chrisonord]

Let's hope that it actually gets into service  like the comanche  should have  done.  Total waste of time effort and  money  scrapping such a  formidable looking  helicopter.

[kitnut617]

I think the USMC are giving it a serious look at to replace the Cobras.

[chrisonord]

As much as the cobras are  a top piece of kit, they are getting  a bit old now, I  dare say  there only  so much  modification to can do to them.
Chris

[jcf]

The AH-IW Super Cobra has been retired, they've been replaced by the AH-1Z Viper,
some of the Zulus are converted Whiskeys the rest are new construction airframes.
Current US Zulu orders have production continuing until 2022.

Purchase of either the Bell or Sikorsky Future Attack Reconnaissance Aircraft (FARA) types
is unlikely and if it was purchased it most likely wouldn't be as an AH-1Z replacement.

As to FARA replacing some of the AH-64, here's a classic example of modern military gobbledygook:

"The FARA and its ecosystem is really our penetration force in the lower tier of the air domain.
That force is going to be able to find, fix and finish pacing threats," says Brigadier General Walter Rugen,
Director of the Army's Future Vertical Lift Cross-Functional Team. "We'll generate the ability for other
players across the joint force to maneuver in that freed-up airspace. Then we'll start disintegrating
[the enemy forces] and open up a corridor."

"And really, I don't think Apache participates in the penetration phase. I think FARA and the FARA
ecosystem does that... If we've generated that joint force freedom of maneuver and our heavy attack
assets are moving forward, which includes the Apache, we're winning."

FARA ecosystem, oh brother.