Recce and Surveillance GB - Rules

[Weaver]

 
The fact sheet published by the JSTARS team on the Robins AFB website calls it a "surveillance and reconnaissance" platform.

Mandy Rice-Davies.   

Have to admit you lost me with that one....

Mandy Rice-Davies was a 'character' in the 1960s Profumo scandal. She's best known for her giggling reply "Well he would, wouldn't he?" when defence council put it to her that Lord Astor denied having an affair with her during the subsequent court case.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandy_Rice-Davies

[ChernayaAkula]

<...> Given their role yes AWACS/AEW are out of - no pun intended - scope; and yes, same applies to systems like JSTARS/ASTOR.

Oh come on???  Are you really saying a platform with the name "Joint SURVEILLANCE Target Attack Radar System" is beyond the scope of a SURVEILLANCE GB?? 

The fact sheet published by the JSTARS team on the Robins AFB website calls it a "surveillance and reconnaissance" platform.

Must admit I'm a bit puzzled by this as well. JSTARS has it in the name, and ASTOR/Sentinel was operated by No.5 Sqn RAF "as part of the Intelligence, Surveillance, Target Acquisition and Reconnaissance (ISTAR) Force" (quote from RAF homepage), while 5 Sqn is explicitly listed as a reconnaissance squadron in the list of reconnaissance units linked on the wiki page linked in the rules.

RECCE & SURVEILLANCE GB RULES <...>
2.   Any subject - physical models of any scale, profiles and stories are eligible but they must be a whif devoted to reconnaissance: manned/unmanned (aircraft, vehicles, ships, submarines, robots.....even animals), land/sea/air/space.  Photo recce, fighter recce, maritime reconnaissance, ELINT, SIGINT, artillery spotters, drones....etc.  Basically, stuff to find out what's going on somewhere.   Can be as simple (change of markings or camo scheme) or as complex (full on kit bashing) as you wish.  If in doubt as to what's in scope then check out (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconnaissance), if still in doubt contact the Mods.
<...>

Highlight by me. Isn't that what AWACS/AEW and JSTARS/ASTOR do? And also what airborne FACs do? In case of the FAC finding a target of opportunity and not something that has been predetermined as a target.

And would armed reconnaissance fit in? Say, a Harrier with a Vinten pod, but also some SNEB canisters? Primary mission is getting pictures, but if the opportunity presents itself, blow up stuff.

[AeroplaneDriver]

 
The fact sheet published by the JSTARS team on the Robins AFB website calls it a "surveillance and reconnaissance" platform.

Mandy Rice-Davies.   

Have to admit you lost me with that one....

Mandy Rice-Davies was a 'character' in the 1960s Profumo scandal. She's best known for her giggling reply "Well he would, wouldn't he?" when defence council put it to her that Lord Astor denied having an affair with her during the subsequent court case.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandy_Rice-Davies

Knew the name from Profumo.  Missed the ASTOR rederence. 

[Pellson]

<...> Given their role yes AWACS/AEW are out of - no pun intended - scope; and yes, same applies to systems like JSTARS/ASTOR.

Oh come on???  Are you really saying a platform with the name "Joint SURVEILLANCE Target Attack Radar System" is beyond the scope of a SURVEILLANCE GB?? 

The fact sheet published by the JSTARS team on the Robins AFB website calls it a "surveillance and reconnaissance" platform.

Must admit I'm a bit puzzled by this as well. JSTARS has it in the name, and ASTOR/Sentinel was operated by No.5 Sqn RAF "as part of the Intelligence, Surveillance, Target Acquisition and Reconnaissance (ISTAR) Force" (quote from RAF homepage), while 5 Sqn is explicitly listed as a reconnaissance squadron in the list of reconnaissance units linked on the wiki page linked in the rules.

RECCE & SURVEILLANCE GB RULES <...>
2.   Any subject - physical models of any scale, profiles and stories are eligible but they must be a whif devoted to reconnaissance: manned/unmanned (aircraft, vehicles, ships, submarines, robots.....even animals), land/sea/air/space.  Photo recce, fighter recce, maritime reconnaissance, ELINT, SIGINT, artillery spotters, drones....etc.  Basically, stuff to find out what's going on somewhere.   Can be as simple (change of markings or camo scheme) or as complex (full on kit bashing) as you wish.  If in doubt as to what's in scope then check out (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconnaissance), if still in doubt contact the Mods.
<...>

Highlight by me. Isn't that what AWACS/AEW and JSTARS/ASTOR do? And also what airborne FACs do? In case of the FAC finding a target of opportunity and not something that has been predetermined as a target.

And would armed reconnaissance fit in? Say, a Harrier with a Vinten pod, but also some SNEB canisters? Primary mission is getting pictures, but if the opportunity presents itself, blow up stuff.

I'm entirely with CA here, in both the AWACS, the JSTARS and the Harrier example.

Besides, I thought the idea was to get as many themed builds in as possible, but tightening the scope obviously works in the opposite direction.

Above said, I haven't participated in one single GB so far, mainly because they haven't fit the direction of my then-current mojo, so maybe I just should shut it.. 

[PR19_Kit]

A JSTARS team '....would say that, wouldn't they?' 

[Weaver]

Highlight by me. Isn't that what AWACS/AEW and JSTARS/ASTOR do? And also what airborne FACs do? In case of the FAC finding a target of opportunity and not something that has been predetermined as a target.

And would armed reconnaissance fit in? Say, a Harrier with a Vinten pod, but also some SNEB canisters? Primary mission is getting pictures, but if the opportunity presents itself, blow up stuff.

Just to muddy the waters further, Harrier GR.1/3s and SHARs had a built-in oblique F95 camera so every mission was potentially dual-role. The RAF had a tradition of this: there were fighter/recce versions of both the Meteor and the Hunter:

Meteor FR Mk.9: 1 x camera with three windows, 4 x 20mm cannon
Meteor PR Mk.10: 3 x cameras, no guns
Hunter FR Mk.10: 3 x cameras, 4 x 30mm cannon

[PR19_Kit]

And the Swift FR5 too.

[TomZ]

Gentlemen,

We have had a number of questions on whether certain things are in or out of scope. With this post we, the moderators, would like to respond to this and hopefully make things a little more clear.
But before we do I would like to say something about rules in general first. I think the rules in a group build are NOT there to let you build whatever you want to build. You can do that outside the group build whenever you want. The rules in a group build are there (I think) to make us all think along the same lines and produce models within the same theme. This means that they sometimes take you out of you comfort zone and challenge you to build something you would otherwise not consider. By definition that means the rules are sometimes restrictive and do not let you build what you might want.

Now to the questions. When we compiled the rules on this group build we gave you a link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconnaissance as a guide as to what would qualify and what not.We continue to be guided by this in this discussion. Apparently this however still leaves a lot of grey areas.
A lot of deciding what qualifies and what not depends on the circumstances. For instance a guy with binoculars looking at some birds does NOT qualify. The same guy standing guard at a border does still not qualify. However if this guy is looking over with his binoculars and trying to find out what the enemy is doing, that WILL qualify. If you would make a model of this, it would depend on the back story whether or not it would qualify.

We tried to apply this logic to the questions posed and come up with the following:
- JSTARS: http://www.usnook.com/english/military/aircraft/earlywarning/2013/0929/63616.html says that '[JSTARS] evolved from separate
  United States Army and Air Force programs to develop (sic), detect, locate and attack enemy armor (sic) at ranges beyond the forward area of
  troops'.  that puts it in the recce category so it IN scope.

- AWACS: We still think that the primary goals of AWACS is to direct your own air assets and so is OUT of scope.

- An Armed Harrier with a reconnaissance pod: It is trying to find out what the enemy is doing so IN scope. The fact that after finding this out it will
  try to bomb this enemy does not detract from this

This will mean that most entries in this group build will be military. However civilian entries are not ruled out!

Now I really, really hope that this is the last of this type of discussion here. I'm not a politician or a lawyer and have no ambition to become one. So again I call on everyone the has an idea and is not sure if it qualifies to PM us and ask instead of trying to explore the theoretical limits of the group build rules.

This is our verdict and this is what you get!



And now I'm going to have a nice glass of whisky and try to think of a good idea for this group build.......

TomZ

[Weaver]

I suspect that many people's problems with the interpretation of this GB stem from the "and Surveillance" part of the title.

Have a look at the Wikipedia article on Surveillance Aircraft which specifically lists "battlefield surveillance" and "airspace surveillance" as roles. The linked pages for those two list JSTARS and AWACS respectively as examples of type.

Survelliance Aircraft: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surveillance_aircraft
Battlefield Surveillance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_ground_surveillance
Airspace Surveillance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_early_warning_and_control

On a purely personal level, I have no problem saying that JSTARS and AWACS are not reconnaissance types, however I have great difficulty saying that they're not surveillance types.

[kitbasher]

Just to muddy the waters further, Harrier GR.1/3s and SHARs had a built-in oblique F95 camera so every mission was potentially dual-role. The RAF had a tradition of this: there were fighter/recce versions of both the Meteor and the Hunter:

Meteor FR Mk.9: 1 x camera with three windows, 4 x 20mm cannon
Meteor PR Mk.10: 3 x cameras, no guns
Hunter FR Mk.10: 3 x cameras, 4 x 30mm cannon

To add to TomZ's response, FR types have always been in scope (see rule 2): by implication also FRS, FGR and GR types (in UK nomenclature terms - broadly RF/RA in US terms). 

'Armed recce' may in retrospect have been a better term to use but rule 2's list was intended to guide not constrain. 

FR and PR have been identified as being in scope from the off (frankly I struggle to see how FR 'muddies the water') - there's been no suggestion at any point that the GB is PR-only.

[sandiego89]

Gentlemen,

......I think the rules in a group build are NOT there to let you build whatever you want to build. You can do that outside the group build whenever you want.....

Bravo!  I am a huge fan of tighter rules for some GB's, rather than "build whatever you want and somehow make it fit the rules".  While some GB themes are ripe for a very wide scope, others are not.   If someone really wants to build an AWACS or an armed recce aircraft, you can always do that on your own. I fully support the results of the witch's cauldron.     

[Weaver]

Just to muddy the waters further, Harrier GR.1/3s and SHARs had a built-in oblique F95 camera so every mission was potentially dual-role. The RAF had a tradition of this: there were fighter/recce versions of both the Meteor and the Hunter:

Meteor FR Mk.9: 1 x camera with three windows, 4 x 20mm cannon
Meteor PR Mk.10: 3 x cameras, no guns
Hunter FR Mk.10: 3 x cameras, 4 x 30mm cannon

To add to TomZ's response, FR types have always been in scope (see rule 2): by implication also FRS, FGR and GR types (in UK nomenclature terms - broadly RF/RA in US terms). 

'Armed recce' may in retrospect have been a better term to use but rule 2's list was intended to guide not constrain. 

FR and PR have been identified as being in scope from the off (frankly I struggle to see how FR 'muddies the water') - there's been no suggestion at any point that the GB is PR-only.

That wasn't a rules question directed at the moderators though: it was a response to this post from ChernayaAkula about tactical aircraft carrying both recce pods and weapons:

Highlight by me. Isn't that what AWACS/AEW and JSTARS/ASTOR do? And also what airborne FACs do? In case of the FAC finding a target of opportunity and not something that has been predetermined as a target.

And would armed reconnaissance fit in? Say, a Harrier with a Vinten pod, but also some SNEB canisters? Primary mission is getting pictures, but if the opportunity presents itself, blow up stuff.

[tigercat]

The problem is everyone always does aircraft , the rules let's you do a Photo Reconnaissance Stegasaurus the world is our Lobster

[kitbasher]

The problem is everyone always does aircraft , the rules let's you do a Photo Reconnaissance Stegasaurus the world is our Lobster

Fair call, aircraft do tend to dominate matters (guilty, m'lud) but the GB isn't limited to aircraft.

A PR stegosaurus?  That could fit into a 'West of Eden' scenario (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_of_Eden).

[tigercat]

I was going to say Badger but thought people might confuse for the Russian Plane