The Gunships GB - Rules

[Mossie]

Rule 2-  WHAT IS A GUNSHIP?
Any aircraft, land vehicle or ship that has been
1 significantly up gunned (numerically or size wise)
2 had its main armament changed to all gun from other armament
3 had guns added to previously unarmed

Having tried and failed to run a Gunships GB on BTS years ago, I've seen some of the pitfalls here. The essential problem is that everybody knows what they think they mean by 'gunship', but when you try to pin it down to specifics, the concept evaporates. The truth is that in popular usage, there are two kinds of helicopter 'gunship' (slim fuselage with weapon wings & transport with bolt-on armament), two kinds of fixed-wing gunship (transport with side-firing guns & bomber with extra nose guns) and various kinds of 'gun-truck', and they're all different from one another while, ironically, the term isn't used for any kind of naval vessel at all.

So, random thoughts/observations:

Rule 3 allows some pretty weedy 'gunships': a dodgem car with a pintle-mounted air-pistol would count under this definition.

Rule 1 begs the question of what qualifies as 'significant'. For example, I've often thought of upgunning a Saladin with a GIAT F2 (AML-90) gun. Is 76mm to 90mm 'significant' enough or not? How about 75mm medium velocity to 76mm high velocity (Sherman to Firefly)? How about 'upgunning' a APC/Scout Car from 1x 7.62mm MG to 1 x 12.7mm, or 2 x 7.62mm?

An Apache has been mentioned as an example of a gunship. Surely the Apache's main armament is its Hellfire missiles, followed by its rockets? The gun is really only a tertiary armament, intended for targets that are too weak or cheap to justify a rocket. The same can be said of almost all purpose designed helicopter 'gunships', indeed some (initial A-129 and some planned Tiger versions) didn't have guns at all.

Do the guns have to be a permanent fixture or can they be in pods? If the latter, then an F-4E with five SUU-23 pods becomes a 'gunship' even though it's essentially unmodified.

For this GB ignore any definition and replace it with 'DAKKA!'. Think that sums it up. 

[AeroplaneDriver]

Don't overthink it gents...

The goal is for as open a definition as a reasonable person would apply so we can get maximum participation.  If it's commonly called a "Gunship" or you make it something YOU can call a "Gunship" by adding gobs of firepower then it's likely gonna fit. 

Pulled by horses?  Sure, if the first thing you notice are the guns
Floats?  Sure, if the first thing you notice are the guns
Rolls on wheels or tracks?  Sure, if the first thing you notice are the guns
Flies via rotors, propellers, jet engines, ion engines, hyperdrive, etc?  Sure, if the first thing you notice are the guns
Existing "Gunship" in different paint/decals?  Of course.

What we are looking for is something that mainly wreaks havoc through gunfire.  Yes, I know current helo gunships mainly use missiles, but it's a What If Group Build.  It works.  For your own designs/kitbashes just make sure it's main job is making life difficult for the other side via some form of gunfire. 

The mention above about a Phantom with a bunch of 20mm pods under the wings...?  That's actually not a far cry from one idea I'm toying with. 

Cannon balls....50 cal...20mm on up...5 inch...16 inch...Ion Cannons...blasters...hell I'd even lean towards an ancient galleon routing Greek Fire being allowed.

Crudebuteffective please chime in if you disagree with any of this, my feelings wont be hurt in the slightest.  Just shooting for a lot of participation as most (I think) of us go into the colder weather months and will hopefully be getting more bench time. 

 

[Mossie]

Sure, if the first thing you notice are the guns

Ditch the rest of the rules, that's all you need. 

[AeroplaneDriver]

Sure, if the first thing you notice are the guns

Ditch the rest of the rules, that's all you need. 

Pretty much sums it up.   

[NARSES2]

Don't overthink it gents...

Totally agree.

GB's are primarily about enjoying your (our) selves 

[Weaver]

Okay, well that's the other approach - a gunship is whatever is called a gunship by somebody, somewhere, if the Mods agree.

Might I suggest that if that's the way we're going then it would be wise for everybody to get the Mods' specific approval for their projects (unless they're very uncontroversial*) before starting? That way at least nobody wastes effort and arguments are minimized.

* 'Very uncontroversial' would be something like a whiff version of a universally accepted 'gunship', such as a transport plane with multiple side-firing guns that was never converted in real life, or a transport helo with heavy gun armament that never had them IRL.

The mention above about a Phantom with a bunch of 20mm pods under the wings...?  That's actually not a far cry from one idea I'm toying with. 

Bear in mind that that was actually done in real life in Vietnam: USAF F-4E with two 20mm pods + internal ('Chico' fast FAC) and US Marine F-4B with three pods (VMFA-122). There's a picture of a Kansas ANG F-4D with five pods, but I don't know if that fit ever saw combat or was just mocked up for trials/publicity/joke. Officially the F-4 could only carry a gunpod on the centreline station, so in both cases, the squadron weapon techies had to do a bit of rewiring to make the wing pods usable.

There's also a pic of a Skyhawk with three Mk.4 HIPEG pods, which had a weird twin-barrelled gun with an eight-cylinder revolver drum action. All the pics show it being tested at China Lake, but there's nothing I can find about it being used in combat.

[crudebuteffective]

Don't overthink it gents...

The goal is for as open a definition as a reasonable person would apply so we can get maximum participation.  If it's commonly called a "Gunship" or you make it something YOU can call a "Gunship" by adding gobs of firepower then it's likely gonna fit. 

Pulled by horses?  Sure, if the first thing you notice are the guns
Floats?  Sure, if the first thing you notice are the guns
Rolls on wheels or tracks?  Sure, if the first thing you notice are the guns
Flies via rotors, propellers, jet engines, ion engines, hyperdrive, etc?  Sure, if the first thing you notice are the guns
Existing "Gunship" in different paint/decals?  Of course.

What we are looking for is something that mainly wreaks havoc through gunfire.  Yes, I know current helo gunships mainly use missiles, but it's a What If Group Build.  It works.  For your own designs/kitbashes just make sure it's main job is making life difficult for the other side via some form of gunfire. 

The mention above about a Phantom with a bunch of 20mm pods under the wings...?  That's actually not a far cry from one idea I'm toying with. 

Cannon balls....50 cal...20mm on up...5 inch...16 inch...Ion Cannons...blasters...hell I'd even lean towards an ancient galleon routing Greek Fire being allowed.

Crudebuteffective please chime in if you disagree with any of this, my feelings wont be hurt in the slightest.  Just shooting for a lot of participation as most (I think) of us go into the colder weather months and will hopefully be getting more bench time. 

we are on the same page here mate

if people look at it and say " look at the guns on that" lol its fits with me

if it can be called a gunship/gunbus/guntruck it fits

and if in doubt ask the mods

[AeroplaneDriver]

Sounds like it should be fairly clear by now.  Barring any further honest comments/arguments/discussion on scope let's move further discussion up to General Discussion and Inspiration threads above.  Final rules posting by roughly mid-Oct.  Start picking out those projects fellas.  LOTS of scope on this one so everyone enjoy some bench time and join in!

[NARSES2]

 

[AeroplaneDriver]

One week to go you miserable lot!   Hope those Gunship ideas are raring to go! 

I think this thread should make the scope fairly clear but does anyone need any last minute clarifications?

If in doubt about your idea message myself and/or Crudebuteffective and we will wield our awesome moderator powers to make a ruling. 

As always we can be bought, but we are not cheap.  Not for these parts anyway. 

[Gondor]

So after reading all the previous posts here an upgraded AH-64 to a B, C D or whatever letter I give it would be fine? As long as I improve the guns?

Gondor

[crudebuteffective]

So after reading all the previous posts here an upgraded AH-64 to a B, C D or whatever letter I give it would be fine? As long as I improve the guns?

Gondor

YEP.........IMPROVE/ENLARGE/MULTIPLY

GO

[zenrat]

So if I take a civilian car, cut a hole in the roof and mount a machine gun on one  of those ring mounts you see on the roof of military trucks, is that acceptable for this GB?

[AeroplaneDriver]

So if I take a civilian car, cut a hole in the roof and mount a machine gun on one  of those ring mounts you see on the roof of military trucks, is that acceptable for this GB?

Perfect for as far as I'm concerned.

[Mossie]

I'm guessing energy weapons are okay as 'guns', lasers, phasers, antimatter potato launchers etc?  Basically, anything pointed rather than guided, launched or dropped.