F-111, FB-111, EF-111, Aardvark, Merlin, Raven, Sparkvark, and Pig

[retro_seventies]

bucc nose art, gulf war 1

Eagle for air defence?  Phase out Merlin gradually with Beagles?  (good commonality for maint - one of the good things about the tornado shared airframe) Still in service gulf war 1 with some units, some already transitioned to Beagles. Gulf war 2 gone and replaced totally by Beagles.

Possible cancellation of jaguar, with some license production of Merlin (RR engines - not sure which though) to take up slack, also exported to jag customers...Equador? Nigeria? Oman?   Likely that Aussie Merlins would be UK built. 

Would the French consider instead of Mirage IV?  With no Jag would the Etendard serve with ADA as well as Aeronavale?

External Mods to Merlin - see development of Tornado for cues - possible chin turrets as in the GR4, but would the Beagle enter service before an appropriate time for external changes? Probably.

Merlin would carry ALARM in the SEAD role, as with Tornado.  Any substitute for the JP233?  I assume that Merlin would carry it as it began as a joing prog with the USAF to equip FB-111.  Seeing as RAF Tornados were tasked with anti runway missions it would stand to reason that a version of the JP233 would be used.

Just as a point of interest - Canberra with side by side seating and/or Merlin radar as a lead in trainer? Would look pretty special.

Hope that some of that helps Mr J, although pretty sure that you've been to all of these places already!

[Thorvic]

bucc nose art, gulf war 1

Eagle for air defence?  Phase out Merlin gradually with Beagles?  (good commonality for maint - one of the good things about the tornado shared airframe) Still in service gulf war 1 with some units, some already transitioned to Beagles. Gulf war 2 gone and replaced totally by Beagles.

Possible cancellation of jaguar, with some license production of Merlin (RR engines - not sure which though) to take up slack, also exported to jag customers...Equador? Nigeria? Oman?   Likely that Aussie Merlins would be UK built. 

Would the French consider instead of Mirage IV?  With no Jag would the Etendard serve with ADA as well as Aeronavale?

External Mods to Merlin - see development of Tornado for cues - possible chin turrets as in the GR4, but would the Beagle enter service before an appropriate time for external changes? Probably.

Merlin would carry ALARM in the SEAD role, as with Tornado.  Any substitute for the JP233?  I assume that Merlin would carry it as it began as a joing prog with the USAF to equip FB-111.  Seeing as RAF Tornados were tasked with anti runway missions it would stand to reason that a version of the JP233 would be used.

Just as a point of interest - Canberra with side by side seating and/or Merlin radar as a lead in trainer? Would look pretty special.

Hope that some of that helps Mr J, although pretty sure that you've been to all of these places already!

Ben,

Stop thinking Tornado , its the result of many compromises in an attempt to retain some of the capability lost in the cancellation of both TSR2 and later F-111K.

The JP233 was actually intended for use on the USAF F-111's the fwd part of the pod with the anti-personel kit was to be carried on wing pylon mounted dispensers and the main runway denial weapons in the larger pod fitted into the bomb bay.

The Mirage IV predates the F-111A and its own K variant offered by Dassault & BAC utilised Spey engines and TSR2 avionics in a revised Mirage IV for half the price of the expected order to replace TSR2.

Dassault did look at larger VG aircraft to replace Mirage IV but these are bassed on the Mirage IV as they were associated with Vought rather than General Dynamics over the VG technology at the time.

The RAAF actually ordered their F-111's before the RAF, but went for a hybrid rather than the base model and giot causght by the development delays. The UK might have helped resolve these VG issues based on the BAC/Vickers test and trials. The only inpact on the RAAF F-111's that i could see was possibly the RAAF changing to the F-111K's retractable nose refuelling probe rather than the USAF receptical mounted in the wing route.

Canberra trainer is possible but more than likely the BAC P45 or rather the AA107 joint RAAF VG trainer would have been adopted.



Jennings,

look for XV107's posts on the Merlin as he discovered that 7 and 15 squadron were earmarked for the F-111K and these would be based at RAF Honnington along with a OCU unit which would have the four Pilot trainers TF-111K.

With only 50  on order the instead of the 150 TSR2 there was going to be somewhat less squadrons and the AFVG would have filled up the rest as a strike fighter.

It would still have performed recon but using the changable pallet in the bombbay rather than a fixed array as per the RF-111A and thus would unlikely have been assigned to 2 or 13 sqdn. Primary role would be Tact Nuke bomber using the WE177, and possibly SRAM, conventional loads such as UK 1000lbs, BL755 and Paveways would have used. SNEB pods would have been left to the smaller types performing close air support.

Its unlikely we would have produced any aircraft, instead we would have done the support role as we did the USAF F-111E/F and would have relied on the US ordering Jetstream and VC-10 as the offset.

Given the initial problems and costs rocketing its very unlikely that any additional aircraft would have been ordered, although the existing aircraft would possibly have been refitted the F standards. There was mention of additional aircraft of the FB-111A type being considered as Vulcan replacements, but the F-111K's would more than likely have taken this role and passed their more conventional strike to the AFVG. Close Air Support  and advanced training being provided by the BAC P45 if the Jag not ordered.

For the Maritime strike this would have been handled by the Navy's Buccaneers, possibly passed over to the RAF and replaced by additional AFVG types or its replacement.

Yes its quite possible that the RAF F-111K's would have continued in service well into the 90's and into this decade, with the USAF and the RAAF operating them the support for them would have allowed them to keep flying longer than say the Buccaneer, and the size and capability would be unlikely to be equaled.

Hope this helps

Cheers

Geoff

[Jennings]

Okay, assuming the F-111K came to fruition, here are my other assumptions.  I'm trying to make this history seem at least plausible:

1.  With the F-111K in service starting ca. 1970/71, early retirement of the Vulcan would have been possible.  It's sort of apples vs. oranges, but the Vulcan was long in the tooth by the mid-70s and extremely expensive to maintain, crew, and fly.  The 111 could have more or less taken over the deep nuclear strike role with the smaller nukes of the era, and the RAF could have bought the SRAM  from the US, or developed its own version thereof (money is no object here).

2.  The Tornado never happened.  After an abortive try, the Germans and Italians gave up and bought UK produced F-111s.  BAE produced them.  I'm going to try to figure out if the Olympus would physically fit into a 111.  Thrust-wise I think it's about the right class to replace the ever-troublesome TF-30.  I'm thinking Concorde engines.

3.  Given the above, just about any Vulcan or Tornado squadron is fair game for me, no?

4.  The Jaguar still happened, for the light strike role.  But what about the UK Phantom?  Surely it happened, but what squadrons would have had it, would there have been as many (or any??) FGR.2s in the RAF (or only the FG.1 in the RN??).  Would they have been purely air defence, or would there still have been a strike role for them?  Some of my F-111Ks are going to be based in Germany, so I'm thinking (for example) 1970s/80s camo on a Bruggen based 31 Squadron airplane (in reality, Phantoms).

5.  The 111 with Harpoons or Sea Eagles would be a killer maritime strike platform.  Given UK production, it could feasibly have replaced or supplemented the Bucc in that role.  If so, what squadron(s) would have flown them?  

6.  In the early 1980s, the RAF participated in the EF-111 program.  Six (or more?) of the TF-111Ks were modified to basically EF-111A standard in the US by Grumman.  When they were placed back in RAF service, they had a unique camo scheme - but what was it?  The USAF EF's got the two tone grey scheme (unique to ECM airplanes in the 1980s).  What squadron got them?

I'm game for anything else anyone can come up with that stays at least within shouting distance of what might really have happened.

Remember, this is our chance to shine.  AFAIK other than the requisite TSR.2 stuff, this may well be the first pure-Whiff mainstream modelling press article.  Seize your chance to participate!  Whiffers Unite!  Down with reality!

Tks!

J

[jcf]

R-R Bristol Olympus 593 for Concorde from JAWA 1968-69:
Max dia at intake: 47.85"(1,215mm)
Length(intake flange to exhaust flange):148.4"(3,769mm)
Max rating: 35,000lb (15,900kg) st + 9% reheat at takeoff.

You may want to look at a 320 series Olympus (30,000lb st), as used in TSR.2, instead of the 593.
The 301 series as used in the Vulcan B.Mk2 were 20,000lb thrust engines.

Jon

[Jennings]

R-R Bristol Olympus 593 for Concorde from JAWA 1968-69:
Max dia at intake: 47.85"(1,215mm)
Length(intake flange to exhaust flange):148.4"(3,769mm)
Max rating: 35,000lb (15,900kg) st + 9% reheat at takeoff.

You may want to look at a 320 series Olympus (30,000lb st), as used in TSR.2, instead of the 593.
The 301 series as used in the Vulcan B.Mk2 were 20,000lb thrust engines.

Thanks for that info Jon.  Does JAWA have similar dimensional info on the TF-30?

Cheers,

J

[jcf]

Not in the 1968 JAWA, but the 1988-89 gives the following for the TF30-P414A as used in the F-14A:
Max Dia: 50.9"(1,293mm)
LOA: 235.7"(5,987mm)

Jon

[datguy]

[snip]
6.  In the early 1980s, the RAF participated in the EF-111 program.  Six (or more?) of the TF-111Ks were modified to basically EF-111A standard in the US by Grumman.  When they were placed back in RAF service, they had a unique camo scheme - but what was it?  The USAF EF's got the two tone grey scheme (unique to ECM airplanes in the 1980s).  What squadron got them?

[snip]

Jennings,

I'd go with the hemp over grey scheme for the Merlin E.1.  Fits with the Nimrod R.1 and Canberras in the recce role.  We'd have to assume a stand-off role for the E-birds, for which hemp is appropriate.  Plus, there's nothing else like it.  Who else made camo for concrete?...

They could go into 51 Sqn with the Nimrods, or you might consider reviving one of the 100 Group Sqns, like 214 or 199.  

Wouldn't the E.1 look great in a 50th anniversery D-Day comemorative scheme of Dark Earth, Dark Green and Black and marked for 199 Sqn Stirling EX-R "Jolly Roger?"

For the GR. versions don't forget to include a white distemper and green sceme for Norway missions, and the Bucc Red Flag desert scheme is worth a look.

DG

[upnorth]

5.  The 111 with Harpoons or Sea Eagles would be a killer maritime strike platform.  Given UK production, it could feasibly have replaced or supplemented the Bucc in that role.  If so, what squadron(s) would have flown them?  

6.  In the early 1980s, the RAF participated in the EF-111 program.  Six (or more?) of the TF-111Ks were modified to basically EF-111A standard in the US by Grumman.  When they were placed back in RAF service, they had a unique camo scheme - but what was it?  The USAF EF's got the two tone grey scheme (unique to ECM airplanes in the 1980s).  What squadron got them?

In supplementing the Buccaneer in Maritime strike, I would think 12 and 208 Squadrons would be the obvious choices for that. Keep them at Lossiemouth and keep one unit as Buccs and make the other F-111s.

As for the EF-111, make them hemp over grey and give them to whatever unit it was that operated the EW Canberra, I think they had red squadron bars with yellow lightning bolts in them.

The RAF did paint their EW Canberras hemp over grey so painting a RAF Spark Vark the same way would be perfectly logical and plausible.

[nev]

4)  Some of the 70s RAFG Phantom squadrons were stop-gaps between the Canberra and Bucc/Jaguar/Tornado and were assigned a mud-moving and recce role.  They were 31, 41 and (I think) 2 and 16.  

A 70s 31 Squadron F-111 is certainly a goer, in a choice of 3 schemes too!  DG/DSG/LAG with full colour roundels  
DG/DSG/LAG with 2 tone roundels
DG/DSG wraparound which only came about post 78 IIRC after experience at Red Flag

If you go onto the RAF website there is a potted history of every RAF squadron, ever.

5)  208 were an old school Bucc (74-94) unit for anti-shipping

12 were 69-93

6)  They would be Merlin E.1s , they'd be E.3 or E.4, depending on what variant you were up to by then.  If you want a "different" scheme (grey/green wraparound would be most likely IMO) then the previously mentioned "hemp" scheme is one.  Or you could take a leaf out of the Vulcan book and replace teh DSG with MSG, maybe even go for the EDSG undersides like the Black Buck Vulcans.

Squadrons - well, the RAF does actually operate a complicated "seniority" scheme, but thats too complicated unless you're *really* sure of your numbers.  Vacant numbers include 74 (Tigers!) and 85 (my choice).  The former is a "fighter" numberplate that fell out of favour for disobeying the CAS when in Singapore and painting spines on their Lightnings.  The latter was a Canberra squadron which had a variety of roles and would suit an EW unit.

Or you could go with 112 (sharkmouth!)

[Thorvic]

Hi Jennings

Yeap Vulcan replacement with FB-111K armed with SRAM was a distinct possibiliy, SRAM was considered for use with the F-111K as a stand off alternative to WE177.

I would avoid the Jaguar strike bit as that only came to the fore once the TSR2, Merlin and AFVG got canned. Sticking with F-111 for the strike roles would mean we would most likely have carried on with AFVG or a UK alternative (BAC 583/585)where the emphasis was more on interceptor with secondary strike role. Phantome would possibly be ordered but most likely in standard USAF/USN config as a stop gap (No need for high UK content as building AFVG and USAF taking the VC-10, Jetstram and possibly Dominie).

Look up on the forum my F-111M as thats based on the premice that with the F-111K in the strike role then a land based F-111B would make an nice replacement for Javelin. (F-111B's issues were mainly to do with carrier performance !). Joe says he found a note in the PRO to say that GD did propose an A-A version to the RAF at the time ).

For Maratime strike it would most likely be Martel, then Sea Eagle or possibly Harpoon, it would depend on politics. I would go with 12 and 208 as per the Buccaneers or possibly look at other famous Coastal Command strike squadrons.

One thing to remember is that 50 F-111Ks were ordered to replace the 150 cancelled TSR2, give a more favourable economy then the other 100 could well have been ordered.

On a whif side, if the UK were more involved in the devlopment of the F-111, avionics, VG and engines, coupled with the replacement carriers not being cancelled, then you could have F-111BK to replace the Navy Tooms/Sea Vixens on CVA-01 in the mid 70's and maybe even the Buccaneers in the Naval Strike role !!!.

Cheers

Geoff

(John's done some rather nice merlin profiles in his Maverick thread)

[nev]

As for the EF-111, make them hemp over grey and give them to whatever unit it was that operated the EW Canberra, I think they had red squadron bars with yellow lightning bolts in them.

360?  I think they were a "training" unit, not front line.  Unless training was a eupehmism

[GTX]

3. What roles did it play other than those? Maritime strike (replacing the Bucc?). If so, what squadron(s) flew them, and from where? What weapons? Sea Eagle? Eventually the Harpoon? Penguin?

I think Sea Eagles would definitely be a goer - if only as a trial.  Remember the RAAF has carried 4 Harpoons on the F-111, so Sea Eagles (much in the same class), would make an interesting twist.

a. Did the UK aircraft industry (BAE) end up building them, and if so, were any exported from the UK assembly line (eg: to Germany, Australia, other Commonwealth AF's)?? Did they have British engines (Spey??).

No - RAAF would have still ordered theirs direct from the USA (though a ramp pic of a RAAF and RAF one together would be cool!  I would stick to the TF-30 (remember that in the F-111 it performed well), though maybe built under license in the UK.

Is it still in service in 2007? If not, what replaced it and when?

Quite possibly - the RAAF's still are and they're the only user of a small fleet!  If the RAF also had some, it would be possible for both nations to support each other even if the USA were no longer in the picture.  Of course, they would have undergone some upgrades much as the RAAF ones have.

Of course to through another twist into the story, if the RAF and RAAF had F-111s, why not throw some to the RCAF as well.

I take it you have checked out http://www.f-111.net/ for info as well?

Regards,

Greg

[upnorth]

Would the Merlins have been able to undertake the Black Buck missions?

That is the big question. I have my doubts personally.

If the Falklands happen in this timeline, the Vulcans may have to come out of mothballs (presuming they hadn't all been cut up by then) to do Black Buck. Barring that, could they revert a few Victors to do the job?

At a long shot, would America be willing to loan the RAF B-52s for it?

[GTX]

Here's another twist for you - if the RAF went ahead with the F-111K and were also able to involve others (e.g. Italy, Germany), would there be a chance of the UK and USA jointly funding the F-111H as a more complete Vulcan replacement?

Regards,

Greg

[Jennings]

Would the Merlins have been able to undertake the Black Buck missions?

That is the big question. I have my doubts personally.

If the Falklands happen in this timeline, the Vulcans may have to come out of mothballs (presuming they hadn't all been cut up by then) to do Black Buck. Barring that, could they revert a few Victors to do the job?

At a long shot, would America be willing to loan the RAF B-52s for it?

Why would you doubt that?  An arse strapped into a seat for 12+ hours is an arse strapped into a seat.  If a Vulcan could do it with aerial refueling, there's absolutely no reason a 111 couldn't have done it as well.  It's not as if you can get up and stroll back to the lounge on a Vulcan any more than you can in a 111.  And given the 111s nav/attack system, especially if it had had Pave Tack, I guarantee they'd have hit the runway at Port Stanley dead nuts on the money the first time too.

No sir, the Falklands Black Buck missions would have gone off just as well or better with the 111 vs. the Vulcan (much as I'm a Vulcanophile in the extreme).

Here's another twist for you - if the RAF went ahead with the F-111K and were also able to involve others (e.g. Italy, Germany), would there be a chance of the UK and USA jointly funding the F-111H as a more complete Vulcan replacement?

Possible, but waaaaaay outside my scope on this endeavo(u)r.



J