What-if RAF aircraft update?

[Geoff_B]

Hmm. Does anyone make a 1/700 Bon Homme Richard (or any of the other angled-deck Essex)? I'm envisioning one with all the 80s upgrade hardware. When they are finally paid off, they could be sold to assorted allies.

Amazingly no-body currently produces one, although rumours abound that somebody is working oon one. There was a resin kit of Oriskany by jim Shirley productions but this is long oop and like rocking horse sh*t to get hold of.

The UK can always give Sikorsky a call and order Blackhawks. Plenty of satisified customers (Army, AF, Navy, Australia, Israel, ROK, Saudi, Jordan, among others).
Combat-proven and dependable.

Sikorsky will also bid but the the Blackhawk is not much younger design wise than the Lynx & Puma it would replace. The NH-90 would appear to be preferred choice being a modern design and developed to superceed the Lynx .

G B)

[uk 75]

Some great stuff here.

I have a copy of Postwar British military aircraft which lists the UK strengths, types and squadrons since 1946.  What I hope to do (in time) is do a word doc which will give the real aircraft and squadrons and their what-if and controversially, fantasy, analogues.

As a rough example:

The V force aircraft are medium bombers.  The Shorts Sperrin might have had to serve in lieu of the Valiant if the type had failed.  Had all three V bombers failed, we would have had to procure B47 Stratojets from the US, and later either B58 Hustlers or FB111s.  We might also have replaced the Valiants in 1966 with the Mirage IV (either original or Spey).    Fantasy elements :

Britain as nonaligned power from 1948.  Substitute TU16 Badgers (used by Indonesia for example) and TU95 Bears (maritime version used by India).

Britain as equal partner with US (Churchill continues as PM in 1945).  RAF receives B36 Peacekeepers (Super Washingtons) and then B52s.   You can take this timeline on to include B70s and B1s right up to a present day B2 component.

Britain as economic giant (real fantasy sadly).  The RAF gets the Avro 730 as a superbomber penetrator in the mid-60s, and/or Vulcan Victor derivatives as shown in Butler's book.  Valiant B2s serve as conventional bombers.

Anyway, I shall try and do something.

UK 75

[Aircav]

It always seems that whatever new helicopter comes into service its always bigger than the one its replacing, Cobra's, Tiger and NH-90's for me    and as far as Westland being better than Sikorsky's, Sikorsky owned Westland for years they just didn't know it.
They was going to be a RR engined version of the Blackhawk built by Westland but it flopped. Agusta managed to design and build a gunship so why couldn't Westland ?

[TsrJoe]

...the Chinook back in the mid 60's was originally intended for licence build over here too with 4x Gnome engines mounted in pairs in the same place as CH.47 standard,,,as is known this order was cancelled (as was another circa 1972!) eventually getting ours during the early 80's!

hmm..im not sure who was to build it back then as Westland had their own submission to the specification which looked like a Sea knight crossed with a Chinook? (mustv been one of the BAC. group)

joe    

[TsrJoe]

some more post WW2. possibles are...

...some normally 'air force' types with a Royal Navy theme :


Hawker P.1081 'Hawk' (variant)
Hawker P.1121 'Hurricane' (variant)
Hawker P.1117 'Naval Hunter'
English Electric 'Sea Canberra' (B.2 variant)
English Electric 'Sea Lightning' (mod. F.6)
English Electric 'VG. Lightning' (mod. F.3 & T.5)
Supermarine 'Sea Swift' (F.3 variant)
Vickers Type 571/1 & 2
Eurofighter Typhoon (F.2 variant)
Miles 'Sea Student' (T.1 variant

Short Skyvan
BN. Islander

Dassault Rafale M

... again all with a basis in fact, based upon files in the Public Records Office/National Archives, museum material or company design studies !

happy modelling, cheers, joe  

ps. iv also re.edited my previous posting on UK. types adding a few of the ones id missed which have been noted in later posts, thanks chaps...keep em coming !

[P1127]

Hmm.  Does anyone make a 1/700 Bon Homme Richard (or any of the other angled-deck Essex)?  I'm envisioning one with all the 80s upgrade hardware.  When they are finally paid off, they could be sold to assorted allies.

Sorry, I've drifted a ways off-topic.

Actually, you've not, as Bon Homme Richard and Oriskany were offered to the RN in the late 70s or early 80s by the US, who were concerned about the lack of sea borne cover in the North Sea & GIUK Gap sectors once Ark Royal was withdrawn.

Assuming F-4Ks and Buccaneers, but you could go on a whole new Air Group....


The NH90 buy was for, initially, SAS use only (billed in the press as a 'stealth Helo') on an anti-terrorist ticket.

I have heard that the future rotorcraft needs (Puma, Sea King HC4,  Lynx replacements) will be met by a combination of EH101 and NH90, with the AB139 for the BLUH instead of Future Lynx. Possibly some more Chinooks as well.

Westland didn't design a gunship for the same reason Westland didn't design a successful civil Helicopter or a successful military design of their own (Lynx being based on a SARO concept).

Same goes for BAE, who also failed to design a succesful aircraft of their own from scratch.

[TsrJoe]

and another... the Transall ...

...the joint German/French Transall was looked at as a possible medium lift aircraft to suppliment the heavy Short Belfast and light Andover...hmmm another one that would look cool in NEAF. colours

...interestingly this was around the time of the MoD. looking at the Atlantique...another Tyne engined type...it would definately have made sense to standardise with the rest of Europe/NATO. in both airframe/engines, but alas..

...that said the C.130 Hercules was originaly to have been powered in its UK. variant by Tynes too, for which BAC. Bristol were to hold sales rights for the type!

im still trying to find further information on this one? as yet iv a few write ups but no confirmed drawings?

cheers, joe

[elmayerle]

I don't know if it helps any, but from what I've read, the type number was BAC 222.  One wonders how the RAF and RN would've fared if they'd bought Pahntoms with GE engines and Hercules with Tynes.  

[TsrJoe]

and yet more..

the Avro CF.105 Arrow was actually given a order go-ahead as a long range suppliment to the EE. P.1B Lightning in place of the abandoned Gloster Thin Wing Javelin!
unfortunately this requirement was itself cancelled during the infamous 1957 defence white paper!

another type looked at  and assessed as a 'poc.' by the RAE. was the CAC. CA.23, Australias answer to the Lightning...unfortunately this design did in no way bear up under scruitiny even tho being powred by the same Avon powerplant as the P.1B, it being just barely supersonic due to a number of major design faults!

 

[elmayerle]

That's really not surprising, what drawings I've seen of the CA.23 show a design that looks closer to an elongated P.1 with horizontal engines than to a Lightning.  It could've been developed to the same standard, but it would've taken considerable work.

[nev]

...interestingly this was around the time of the MoD. looking at the Atlantique...another Tyne engined type...it would definately have made sense to standardise with the rest of Europe/NATO. in both airframe/engines, but alas..

In the ASW role?  Would this have been in the early Nimrod grey/white hi-vis scheme?

Could be tempted by the Revell kit...

[elmayerle]

and yet more..

the Avro CF.105 Arrow was actually given a order go-ahead as a long range suppliment to the EE. P.1B Lightning in place of the abandoned Gloster Thin Wing Javelin!
unfortunately this requirement was itself cancelled during the infamous 1957 defence white paper!

another type looked at  and assessed as a 'poc.' by the RAE. was the CAC. CA.23, Australias answer to the Lightning...unfortunately this design did in no way bear up under scruitiny even tho being powred by the same Avon powerplant as the P.1B, it being just barely supersonic due to a number of major design faults!

From what I've garther from Randall Whitcomb and info he's gotten from Jim Floyd, the RAF was also looking at an Arrow variant to OR.339 with essentially a half-scale Blue Steel carried by the weapons pod.

[Geoff_B]

...interestingly this was around the time of the MoD. looking at the Atlantique...another Tyne engined type...it would definately have made sense to standardise with the rest of Europe/NATO. in both airframe/engines, but alas..

In the ASW role?  Would this have been in the early Nimrod grey/white hi-vis scheme?

Could be tempted by the Revell kit...

Yeap most likely Nev although they could also have ended up in a simialr scheme to the Shacks they were to replace as delivery might have been a bit sooner than the Nimrod due to us going off on our own. You do kinda of wonder why we went grey/white i suppose it matched our other large aircraft like the VC-10, Britannia and Belfast plus of course resembling the USN Orions.


G B)

[P1127]

...interestingly this was around the time of the MoD. looking at the Atlantique...another Tyne engined type...it would definately have made sense to standardise with the rest of Europe/NATO. in both airframe/engines, but alas..

In the ASW role?  Would this have been in the early Nimrod grey/white hi-vis scheme?

The original spec that the Nimrod was created for was virtually written around an Atlantic with extra boost engines

[Radish]

Constellation

There was a thought to develop the C-121 into the AC-121 for the Vietnamese, but it came to nought.

What about Constellations in RAF service:

transports?

maritime reconnaisance??

Some nice camouflage and colour schemes too.

And there's good 1/144th kits available, and the Heller 1/72nd kit is majestic once you correct the wing dihedral.