What-if RAF aircraft update?

[elmayerle]

Turboprop Constellation with Tynes?  The testbeds with T34's adn T35's certainly looked nice.  That'd work in a number of roles.  I can't see it as a gunship, htat low wing gets in the way.  *smile* But how about if the B-30 ahd been built?  How would it have developed?

[Matt Wiser]

The RAF did seriously consider buying F-117s from Lockheed after their success in Gulf War I, but by the time they finally asked Lockheed about new aircraft, it was too late: the line at Lockheed-Burbank here in California (the Skunk Works) had already shut down.
As for bombers, how about RAF B-1s? No way would the B-2 be cleared for export.
And if the V-bomber program had fizzled, well, there's B-47s, B-52s, and B-58s that would've been options.

[Geoff_B]

The RAF did seriously consider buying F-117s from Lockheed after their success in Gulf War I, but by the time they finally asked Lockheed about new aircraft, it was too late: the line at Lockheed-Burbank here in California (the Skunk Works) had already shut down.
As for bombers, how about RAF B-1s? No way would the B-2 be cleared for export.
And if the V-bomber program had fizzled, well, there's B-47s, B-52s, and B-58s that would've been options.

Matt

Boeing did offer both the RAF and then the RAAF the 30 B-1B that the USAF took out of commission a couple of years ago as it would have been more cost effective to Boeing to keep 'em flying rather than mothballed for parts. As it happens some are now being hauled out od the graveyard for further USAF usage whilst the rest are stripped for parts. Both the UK and Australia had to turn down the offer as although the capabilities would be greatly appreciated the operating and support costs were too way too costly for todays budgets  

Actually got an Airfix 1/72 B-1b to do as either an RAF or RAAF version in Gunship Grey.

G B)  

[Mike Wren]

The RAF did seriously consider buying F-117s from Lockheed after their success in Gulf War I

and here's the proof...  

can't remember the backstory off the top of my head (I'm at work, and the pictures aren't much good either), but 9 Sqn & their Tornados were disbanded in 1992, only in 1999 after strikes in Kosovo was the Nighthawk B.1 officially recognised by the MoD, after operating secretly from RAF Lossiemouth for 7 years

[Hobbes]

more proof

backstory

[nev]

IX squadron, very appropriate Mike, I like it  B)


BTW, my uncle was an engine fitter on IX squadron Vulcans for a while back in the 70s.  I remember he took me in their crew room one time and I've never forgetten the unofficial IX squadron motto hung on the wall

"There's always bloody something"  

I also got a really cool yellow t-shirt with a green bat on the front   I was the envy of all my 7 year old friends with that one  B)  

[Radish]

That photo looks amazingly like the Armstrong-Whitworth "Slug", built in the early post-war years, from utility materials (ie chipboard). It proved difficult to fly (being heavy) and eventually succombed in a heavy thunderstorm to be left on the hardstanding as a pile of soggy sawdust.
eventually, the research it engendered found its way to the Us.....hence the F-117  

[P1127]

ps. re the U.2R...its not excactly a 'what if' as the type did operate with small roundels aft of the wing when based at akrotiri..wither as a zap or for 'operational/political' reasons im unsure?

You found a photo of that?

There were RAF pilots flying U2 missions both prior to and after it came out of the black - I've often wondered if the late 50s operations out of Turkey carried roundels for political reasons.

Could be that 'R' was flown by an RAF pilot.

Same goes for the F-117

[NARSES2]

The book "Cold WAr in the Air" has some extremely interesting stories in it about these clandestine flights, and some RB45's were flown with roundels. I'll have a look and see if there are any decent photo's in it.

Chris

[Radish]

Heavens know what various scenarios would contribute to these serving.....that can always be worked out after a "build". There's always a way, after all, truth is usually stranger than fiction.

So......in no particular order other than how they trickle from my brain:

All post-'45 of course (perhaps a pre-39 option later??):

F-86D/K and Canadair Sabre Mk.6, as well as a "D" with Orenda engine.
(Various RAF day/nightfighter/all-weather fighter units, as well as RAuxAF units later)

F-89....Nightfighter units....all black or standard nightfighter camo. Also, a ground attack unit using the specially modified version with 6 cannon.

F-94....as for the F-89

T-33.....the perenial trainer

F9F Panther/Cougar....especially useful for the ground attack units of the Free Polish/Czech squadrons. In standard RAF colours.

F-100D for ground-attack units in North Africa and SE Asia

F-101A/B/C plus RF versions.....lots, really in different finishes too.

F-102....All Weather Fighter units....grey/green etc

F-104.....thousands!!!! Lots of versions, units, special schemes, special weapons, etc.

F-105D/F/G.....Wooksta did a nice 16 Sqn (?) all white strike version, and I've done a Gulf Pink version in 1/72nd, but a lovely 1/48th G and a D are on the cards. Kits bought and decals are easy. A 16 Sqn all-black "Saint"??

F-106...after Jennings's artwork, 56 Sqn has to feature, as well as 74 Sqn.

F-4D/E/G....thousands, plus RF-4E

F-14.....lots

F-15.....lots

F-16....thousands

F-111....some nice desert camouflaged versions?

AH-1W/Z....thousands

H-60 variants....lots

I can go on, and on, like including the F-18 too.
And what about the A-4, and A-6?

There's several A-4N(NATO) ready to build, including RAF versions.

What more can I say.....bring them on!!
With B-36s, B-47s, B-52s, B-58s too.

               

[TsrJoe]

...heres some more from the files of the PRO./National Archives at Kew, museum records and verified published sources...

please note those listed below are not in any particular order or time frame but were all SERIOUS evaluations for which there is SUPPORTING references...

Grumman Tiger, Royal Navy, 1958 [EDSG./White 'low scheme'??]
Grumman Tracer, Royal Navy (HMS. Eagle)
Grumman Hawkeye, Royal Navy (HMS. Q.E.)
Vought Crusader, Royal Navy (Spey Engined)
NA. RA.5C Vigilantie, Royal Navy (HMS. Q.E.)
MDD. F.4B/J Phantom, Royal Navy (HMS. Q.E.)
MDD./BAC. F.4HL, Royal Navy ('big wing')
Bell HSS.1, Royal Navy
GD. F.111B 'Swallow', Royal Navy
Boeing V.22 Osprey, Royal Navy
Boeing JSF. 'F.32 Budgie', Royal Navy
Sikorsky Seahawk, Royal Navy (frigates, etc)

Hawker P.1081 'Hawk' (variant)
Hawker P.1121 'Hurricane' (variant) [EDSG./White 'low scheme??]
Hawker P.1117 'Naval Hunter' [EDSG./White 'low scheme??]
English Electric 'Sea Canberra', Royal Navy, 1952 [EDSG./Sky 'high scheme'??]
English Electric 'Sea Lightning' (F.6 & VG. T.5) [EDSG./White 'low scheme??]
Supermarine 'Sea Swift' (F.3 variant)
Eurofighter 'Sea Typhoon', Royal Navy
Miles 'Sea Student' (T.1 variant) ['Admirals Barge' scheme??]

Dassault Mirage III, RAF. (Spey engined)
Dassault Mirage IIIV, RAF.
Dassault Mirage IV, RAF. (Spey Engined)
Breguet Atlantique, RAF.
Sud Super Frelon, Joint Services
BAC. Jaguar M, Royal Navy
Dassault Alpha Jet, RAF. [Red/White 'trainer scheme'??]
Dassault Rafale M (Royal Navy)

Republic F.105 Thunderchief, RAF.
Hughes 269, AAC.
Brantley B.2, AAC.
Bell D.188 VTO. RAF.
MDD./BAe. AV.16, RAF./RN.
Convair B.58 Hustler, RAF.
NA. A.3J Vigilante, RAF.
Lockheed F.104 Starfighter, RAF.
Lockheed U.2 'Angel', RAF.
Grumman F.14B Tomcat, RAF. (1976)
Douglas B.66 Destroyer, RAF.
MDD. F.4VS Phantom, RAF. ('swing wing')
MDD. F.15 Eagle, RAF. (1976)
GD. F.111K/(M) 'Swallow', RAF.
Convair B.36 Peacemaker, RAF.
Lockheed C.5A Galaxy, RAF.
Lockheed P.3 Orion, RAF.
Boeing KC.135A Stratotanker, RAF.
Sikorsky CH.57 Mojave, RAF.
Sikorsky CH.53 Stallion, Joint Services
Sikorsky Blackhawk, Joint Services
Northrop F.18L Hornet, RAF.
Lockheed F.117 Nighthawk, RAF.
GD. F.16A Falcon, RAF.
MDD. JSF. RAF.
Bell AH.1W Cobra, AAC.
Bell JetRanger, RAF. (DHFS.)

Dornier Do.27, AAC.
Dornier Do.31 Lifter, RAF.
Eurocopter Tiger, AAC.
Eurocopter NH.90, RAF./AAC.
Eurocopter Dauphin, RAF. (DHFS.)
Eurocopter BK.117, RAF. (DHFS.)
Beriev A.40 Mermaid, RAF. [drool...]
Pilatus PC.9, RAF.


... some more snippets ...Lockheed U.2R/TR.1 and F.117A Nighthawk (does anyone know if the B.2 type intakes are actually confirmed for the RAF. one? the ref i have states they were from the US. production line!)


ps. re the U.2R...its not excactly a 'what if' as the type did operate with small roundels aft of the wing when based at akrotiri..wither as a zap or for 'operational/political' reasons im unsure?


... obviously theres lots more...ill add further types to the forum as i come across them in the files, hoping this is of some use, cheers, joe  


ps. i have left out ones which altho commonly discussed and even modelled i have seen no written evidence for, likewise i have omitted types speculated to have been put forward too, thus hopefully giving us a framework from which to spring from ?  likewise i have as yetnot included the literally dozens of seroius proposals put forward by UK. firms throughout the 'post war' period !

pps. oh and somat different again... back in the late 40's in recognition of the soviets ordering evaluation numbers Meteor and Vampire airframes (not delivered!), the UK. did temativly pursue the idea of ordering representative soviet jet aircraft in return..just imagine a Mig 9, Yak 15, etc in UK. colours...


a big thanks to all who have found other non UK. designs looked at by the MoD. and HM. forces to add to this ongoing listing ...happy modelling, cheers, joe

jwc  

[P1127]

One to add to your list (or look out for at Kew!) is the DC-10, which was examined at the same time as the Tristar - or more specifically, the ex-Laker Airways DC-10s.

Off the top of my head, I can't recall which types, but there were other airframe platforms in contention for the ASTOR program before the Global Express/Sentinel was chosen (Gulfstream?)


And Tim Mason's book has details of the type evaluated against the Jetstream (Rockwell Commander?) for the multi-engine trainer requirement

[TsrJoe]

ooohh..the 'commander' would certainly look different in the RAF. 'trainer scheme of the period! any further info?

cheers, joe

[Archibald]

Wow. Found this thread googleing a bit about the Thin-wing Javelin. I saw this plane in Tony buttler book and its impressive. Alas, it is a bit neglected because of the CF-105 and Delta III... no one made of model of this plane?  

[AeroplaneDriver]

Wow. Found this thread googleing a bit about the Thin-wing Javelin. I saw this plane in Tony buttler book and its impressive. Alas, it is a bit neglected because of the CF-105 and Delta III... no one made of model of this plane?

Archie,

If you havent already, check this out:

http://p216.ezboard.com/fwarships1discussi...icID=2131.topic

Not a whole lot of info, but some.